- The daily habits of successful language learners.
- The importance of psychology and attitude in language learning.
- Common language learning myths and misconceptions.
- The DOs and DON’Ts of effective language acquisition.
- The best language learning apps, sites, and resources available.
- How to have more fun in language learning.
Mattias Ribbing is a Swedish author, lecturer, and Grandmaster of Memory. I had the pleasure of meeting him at the 2016 Bulletproof Conference and was blown away by his highly effective methods and positive attitude. Contrary to what most people would assume, Mattias isn't a savant and wasn’t born with extraordinary cognitive skills. He had average grades at school and struggled to remember what he had studied like almost everyone else. It wasn’t until he was 29 that he developed his impressive ability to remember. The secret, he discovered, was thinking in images. By visualizing specific 3-D images during a lecture, reading a book, or learning a new language, he created a memorable visual context that his brain could then attach the information to and more easily recall.Mattias demonstrated just how effective this technique can be at the conference by trying something he had never done. He gave a copy of the Sunday edition of The Wall Street Journal and The Los Angeles Times to two random members of the audience and asked them to pick any page in each newspaper. He then described in surprising detail the contents of that page completely from memory. He read the newspapers that morning once and only once, and all of this was done in his non-native language of English. He joked that, “A sane person would probably want to test something like this in their first language first and not on the main stage of a big conference.”
Listen to the Interview
In the interview, Mattias shares how to apply his powerful memory techniques to language learning, Japanese kanji, and even daily life.
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Show Notes
- Kanji for “above”: 上
- Effective memory techniques make you more free to focus on the moment in conversations, interviews, etc.
- You can decide to store memories in “temp” folders or in well-organized long-term memory folders.
- Traditional rote learning is like throwing random, disorganized files onto your computer desktop without names, folders, etc.
- Thinking in images helps you focus on the moment because it provides something concrete to attach your focus to.
- Reviewing images is much faster than reviewing words.
Learn More about Mattias
You can learn more about Mattias, check out his courses, and more at www.grandmasterofmemory.com.
Kerstin Hammes is the outspoken author of the Fluent Language blog, Fluency Made Achievable, and The Vocab Cookbook. She is a native German speaker, but has reached a native level of fluency in English, and abilities in a number of additional languages, including French, Italian, Latin, Spanish, and Russian. She is a great language teacher with an infectious passion for languages and charming sense of humor.
Listen to the Interview
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Resources Mentioned
- Deutsche Grammatik (German grammar book)
- Lingolía (Deutsche Grammatik's website)
- About.com (scroll down to “World Languages”)
- Russian in 10 Minutes a Day (book, flashcards, CD-Rom)
- Flashsticks (Nifty post-it note flashcards. Use discount code KERSTIN10 to receive 10% off.)
- Hueber Menschen (A1 & A2 level textbook for teaching German)
- Fit fürs Goethe Zertifikat (test prep)
In today's show, I talk with Chris Broholm of Actual Fluency, an excellent podcast and blog boasting an impressive number of interviews with brilliant language experts, zany polyglots, etc. (over 50 episodes as of writing), including many of my heroes and a few guests who have been on the Language Mastery Show. In his own words, Chris is not an expert on languages, linguistics, or learning, is not a great student, and is not gifted at language learning. While I think he is certainly being a bit too humble, I love how he shows that anyone can learn a language regardless of one's level of introversion, aptitude for learning, location, age, etc. Unlike many who come to language learning as just a hobby, languages helped pull Chris out of severe depression and transform his life.
Listen to the Interview
Resources Mentioned
- iTalki (tutoring site)
- The Frozen Soundtrack in one's target language
- последний из магисян (Russian TV comedy series)
- The Polyglot Gathering in Berlin
In today's show, I chat with the man, the legend, the one and only, Italian polyglot Luca Lampariello. Over the past 20 years, Luca has reached a very high level in 9 foreign languages: English, French, German, Spanish, Swedish, Russian, Dutch, Portuguese, and Mandarin Chinese. Luca is full useful tips and strategies, which he shares in depth at his excellent blog, The Polyglot Dream.In the interview, we discuss:
- How Luca got interested in languages.
- Procedural vs declarative memory.
- The weakness of rote memorization.
- How to train your brain to learn better.
- The myth that you have to be a genius to learn lots of languages.
- The myth that you have to learn a lot of words to become fluent.
- The myth that just reading or listening a lot will make you a better speaker.
- The ability to translate and communicate are very different things.
- Whether there is a proper order of acquisition for foreign language skills.
- The myth that polyglots can speak all their languages perfectly.
- The importance of maintaining previously learned languages as you take on another.
- Luca's daily language learning and maintenance routine.
- The myth that intensity always equals speed.
- Luca's favorite tools for different stages of learning.
Listen to the Interview
Resources Mentioned
- France 2 (French TV)
- Assimil (self-guided language courses)
- Colloquial (self-guided language courses)
- Linguaphone (self-guided language courses)
- Teach Yourself (self-guided language courses)
- Mandarin Spot (Chinese text converter)
- Make it Stick (book about how to learn)
- Brain Rules (book about how the brain learns)
- Gidonlinekino.com (HD movies dubbed into Russian)
- Ard.de (movies & documentaries in German)
- LingQ.com (reading & listening content + vocabulary tools & tutors)
Aaron Myers is the man behind The Everyday Language Learner, a wonderful blog that aims to help the average Joe (and John, and Rosemary, and…okay, you get the idea) learn a foreign language in fun, effective, efficient way. Above all else, Aaron strives to empower learners by showing people how to learn, not just what. To that end, Aaron has written heaps of excellent blog posts, a host of useful language learning guides, including The Guide to Getting Started, Activities and Strategies for Everyday Language Learners, The Guide to Self-Assessment, and Stage: Before You Move Overseas. He also offers private language coaching for those who want more personalized help.In our interview, we discuss:
- Aaron's daily language learning routine while learning Turkish.
- The importance of practicing numbers spoken at real speed.
- How to create learner-centric “Total Physical Response” (TPR).
- The power of “Language Acquisition Projects” (LAPs).
- Creating a corpus of comprehensible listening material.
- Handcrafted text and audio materials.
- How to maintain a language when you move back home.
- The importance of preserving motivation.
- The six pillars of learning a language: 1) Accountability, 2) Assessment, 3) Encouragement, 4) Knowledge, 5) Planning, and 6) Resources.
- Why the imperfect method you stick with is better than the perfect method you quit.
- How to be an independent language learner.
- The power of “password phrases” (a.k.a. “power tools”).
Listen to the Interview
Resources Mentioned
- Two Hours with a Language Helper (Aaron's post about working with tutors & native speakers)
- Total Physical Response (a language learning method that incorporates physical movement)
- Handcrafted Audio for Remembering What You Learn (Aaron's guest post on Fluent in 3 Months)
- Maintaining the Language from Afar (Everyday Language Learner post)
- Kure.tv (Turkish TV shows online)
- Iki Dunya Arasinda (Turkish soap opera)
- Sustaining (Aaron's free guide to help you stick to it)
- Peace Corps Volunteer On-going Language Learning Manual (free PDF)
- Whole World Guide to Language Learning (Terry Marshall's guide to language learning)
- The Guide to Getting Started (Aaron's guide on how to start learning a language)
- Anki (spaced repetition flashcards)
- Lang-8 (free, crowd-sourced writing correction)
- RhinoSpike (free, crowd-sourced audio recordings)
- The Place to Start (Aaron's recommended articles for new readers)
- The NOT To Do List for Successful Language Learners (my article about common mistakes to avoid)
People Mentioned
Donovan Nagel is an Applied Linguistics graduate hailing from rural Queensland, Australia (the amazing soundscape you hear in the background of our interview) and the man behind the language learning site and community, The Mezzofanti Guild, and the Arabic learning site, Talk in Arabic. Donovan named the site after one of his heroes, Cardinal Giuseppe Gasparo Mezzofanti (1774 – 1849), a hyperpolyglot who Donovan felt a strong connection to given their mutual background in theology, Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic, and the fact that they both focus on learning via contact with real people.In our interview, we discuss:
- The difference between various Arabic dialects.
- The fuzzy distinction between “dialects” and “languages”.
- Why you should NOT start with Modern Standard Arabic.
- The importance of learning the Arabic dialect of the people you're interested in.
- The pros and cons of learning a foreign language with a significant other.
- Why he created Talk in Arabic (a learner-centric content site).
- The importance of learning in short bursts and focusing on time-sensitive vocabulary.
- Why you should focus on only 5 to 8 words at a time.
- How flashcards and app-based study can be a form of procrastination, not actual learning.
- How sequence in flashcards can build false confidence.
- The power of urgency in language learning.
Listen to the Interview
Resources Mentioned in the Interview
- Donovan's Arabic content site: Talk in Arabic
- Where to find native speakers: iTalki.com
- Online Irish learning site: Ranganna.com
- Ranganna's textbooks: Gaeilge Gan Stro (“Irish Without Struggle”)
- Music-based language training app: Earworm's Musical Brain Trainer
- Good Arabic books: American University of Cairo Press bookshop
- Audio spaced-repetition training for high-beginners: Glossika
Kevin Morehouse is the man behind LanguageHero.co, a site dedicated to helping language learners start their journey, find allies, and stay the course. Kevin is a certified Italian teacher and soon to be certified in Spanish as well. In our interview, Kevin and I discuss:- The advantages and disadvantages of learning a foreign language in the classroom.
- The problem with waiting until one is “ready” to start speaking.
- The fact that immersion is a choice. Don't wait for the language to come to you!
- The power of social accountability (e.g. making commitments to other people).
- The problem with letting emotions drive when/if one studies.
- The importance of focusing on process over end goals.
- The many linguistic and social benefits of working with tutors.
- The fact that extroversion is not required to learn a language well.
- What “Language Hero” is and why he created it.
- Why learning a language is no longer a resource problem, but rather a confidence problem.
- The difference between polyglots and failed learners is drive, not ability.
- “Get in line, and stay in line.”
- A typical day of language learning for Kevin.
- Kevin's favorite language learning tools and resources.
- The dangers of uncontrolled Internet use.
Listen to the Interview
Resources Mentioned in the Episode
- Couchsurfing.com
- Stickk.com
- Beeminder.com
- Duolingo.com
- ASSiMiL books
- Teach Yourself a Language books
- iTalki.com
- La Repubblica (Italian news site)
- Spotify
- Kindle books in foreign languages
- Leech Block Firefox Add-on
Learn More About Kevin Morehouse
- Website: LanguageHero.co
- Twitter: Twitter.com/Kevin_Morehouse
Richard Simcott is an accomplished polyglot with impressive abilities in over 16 languages, a feat that led HarperCollins to call him “one of the most multilingual people from The United Kingdom”. Richard shares his language learning wisdom, tips, interviews, and super-sized doses of motivation on his popular YouTube channel and on his website, SpeakingFluently.com.In the interview, Richard and I discuss idiolects and dialects, the importance of making language ability a “need” instead of just a “want”, the fact that anyone can learn a language since everyone does, the key difference between casual language learners and accomplished polyglots, what languages Richard speaks and how he learned (and maintains) them, the advantages of learning languages in university, Richard's language learning routine, the pros and cons of continuing to refine a language or pursuing a “new pretty flower”, the fact that language learning is “over learning”, the power of phonetic patterns in languages, and more.
Listen to the Interview
Resources Mentioned in the Episode
- Borgen: a Danish political drama
- Nordic Noir: A genre of Scandinavian TV with dark themes, plain language, and morally complex plot lines.
- Euronews: a smartphone app which includes video, audio & text in multiple languages, including English, Arabic, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Persian, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish, Turkish, and Ukrainian.
- The Polyglot Conference: A place for polyglots and language lovers of all levels to meet, laugh, and learn. Don't miss the 2015 conference in New York!
Learn More About Richard Simcott
- YouTube Channel: youtube.com/torbyrne
- Website: SpeakingFluently.com
- Facebook: Facebook.com/SpeakingFluently
- Twitter: Twitter.com/speakinfluently
My “Book Battle” with Benny at his signing in Seattle.
Benny Lewis, also known as the Irish Polyglot, is one of my heroes. Not only has he demonstrated that it's possible to reach conversational fluency in a matter of months, not years as most believe, but he lives his life as a full-time traveler, language learner, and technomad, and has managed to build the most popular language learning blog on the planet along the way. Benny's philosophy on self-guided immersion is right in line with my own, as exemplified in the following quote from his new book:
“…where you are isn’t what decides whether or not you’ll be successful. Attitude beats latitude (and longitude) every time. It’s more about creating an immersion environment, exposing yourself to native speakers, and doing everything you can in that language.”
Listen to the Show
Show Notes
In the interview, we discuss:
1) The release of Benny's new book, Fluent in 3 Months: How Anyone at Any Age Can Learn to Speak Any Language from Anywhere in the World.
2) Benny's language study plans for the coming year.
3) Benny's favorite places to find native speakers (including iTalki and Couchsurfing).
4) 5 common language learning myths and destructive attitudes (of the 20 detailed in his book) that hold would-be learners back:
- “Aren't Adult Language Learner's at a Disadvantage?”
- “I Don't Have the Language Gene”
- “I Don't Have the Time”
- “Language Programs Are Expensive”
- “I'm Waiting for the Perfect Language Course”
5) How Benny juggles multiple languages.
6) “Immersion Without a Plane Ticket”
7) Useful language learning hacks:
- Using modal verbs + infinitives
- Using melodies to better remember phrases
- Using mnemonics to better remember words, phrases & Chinese characters
Mo' Info
If you haven't already, make sure to check out Benny's award-winning language and travel site, Fluentin3Months.com, as well as his comprehensive resource toolkit, Fluent in 3 Months Premium.
Ellen Jovin is variously described as a “linguaphile”, a “language-crazed writer”, a “grammar freak”, a “former freelance writer”, and a professional trainer specializing in communication skills. On the first of July in 2009, Ellen began an impressive language and culture project called “Words & Worlds of New York” with the goal exploring the myriad languages spoken in The Big Apple. In her own words, she started the massive undertaking because:“I love languages, and I love New York. Also, it is possible I may be a wee bit compulsive. I had studied German, Spanish, and French in school, but I wanted to go more global this time. The initial plan was a year, but that soon became two years, which eventually became three years, then four, and now, nearly five years. The schedule has so far included 18 different languages involving a total of nine different alphabets and writing systems. I am plotting the nineteenth. Through my blog here, this site chronicles my linguistic adventures, some misadventures, and the mental and physical fallout of spending a lot of time outside one’s own alphabet and grammar. In 2013, I added a directory of learning-resource reviews for other people seeking to learn a new language or reinforce old skills. This site [EllenJovin.com] is intended to be a tribute to the joys of language learning, and to the extraordinary linguistic riches of my beloved adopted city and makeshift language-learning lab: New York.”
To date, Ellen has completed 3-month missions in the following languages and written over 1,000 pages of content:
- Russian: July to August 2009
- Arabic: September to October 2009
- Italian: November 2009 to January 2010
- Korean: February to March 2010
- Spanish: April to May 2010
- Greek: June to July 2010
- Hindi: August to September 2010
- German: October to November 2010
- Japanese: December 2010 to February 2011
- French: March to May 2011
- Polish: June to August 2011
- Hebrew: November 2011 to February 2012
- Dutch: February to March 2012
- Portuguese: July to October 2012
- Mandarin: November 2012 to April 2013
- Irish: May to June 2013
- Yiddish: July to August 2013
- Persian: May to August 2014
Ellen has a wonderful sense of humor (and a great deal of patience for my corny jokes!) and I thoroughly enjoyed chatting with her about all things language. I hope you enjoy listening to the conversation as much as enjoyed recording it:
Listen to the Show
Mo' Info
Make sure to check out Ellen's excellent website, EllenJovin.com, for an extensive range of language product reviews.
With seven languages under his linguistic belt and an academic background in Applied Linguistics, Olly Richards of IWillTeachYouaLanguage.com has proven that he can both talk the talk and walk the walk. His infectious passion for all things language is a breath of fresh air in the increasingly cynical language learning blogosphere. In the interview, we discuss the under-appreciated importance of psychology in language learning, how he has had to alter his approach to language learning now that he is learning a language in country where it isn't widely spoken (Cantonese in Qatar of all places!), his experience participating in Brian Kwong's +1 Challenge (an approach he lovingly refers to as “crowdsourced motivation”), the role of teachers in language education, and the power of “negotiated syllabi”.P.S. Join Olly's free email course for powerful language learning tips and insights.
P.P.S. Don't miss Olly's follow-up interview with your's truly about how to learn Mandarin Chinese.
Listen to the Show
Mo' Info
Make sure to check out Olly's great blog iwillteachyoualanguage.com, as well as his free step-by-step course and extensive resources.
Keith Brooks is the man behind Pardon My Norwegian, a site dedicated to “everything cool from Norway from the eyes of a Kentuckian”. Prior to “marrying” the Norwegian language, Keith sampled a number of a potential languages in a project called 37 Languages. His “speed dating” or “taste testing” approach to choosing just the right “significant linguistic other” got picked up by PRI's The World in 2009 (“Blogging the Love of Language“), and Keith was asked back again in 2010 to report on which language he finally chose to settle down with (“A Language Speed-Dater Gets Serious“).Listen to the Show
Show Notes
In our interview, Keith:
- Shares his favorite tips and tools for learning Norwegian online.
- Confirms that contrary to what many may expect, it is indeed possible to learn Norwegian even in Louisville, Kentucky.
- Compares Norwegian with other Scandinavian tongues: “Danish sounds like Swedish, but is written like Norwegian. Swedish sounds like Norwegian, but is closer to Danish. And then Norwegian, in my opinion, is the best one of them all!”
Mo' Info
For more information about Keith Brooks, learning Norwegian, and his language speed dating experiences, check out pardonmynorwegian.com.
Susanna Zaraysky is a self-proclaimed “language geek”, a speaker of 7 languages, and the author of Language is Music: Over 100 Fun & Easy Tips to Learn Foreign Languages. She has been featured on CBS, BBC Radio, CNN, NBC, and Univision, and now thanks to me, the world's most famous podcast! Just kidding. In our interview, we discuss the weaknesses of traditional language education, the power of music in language acquisition, the importance of developing a resonance for one's target language and culture, and the fact that you can learn any language, anywhere.Listen to the Show
Susanna's Story
Susanna Zaraysky was born in Leningrad (now called Saint Petersburg) in the former Soviet Union. As Suzanna jokes in the interview:
“All of my official documents say that I was born in a city and country that no longer exist!”
She moved to the United States at the age of 3, but continued speaking Russian at home. She refers to herself as a “heritage speaker” of Russian, with native level fluency in the spoken language but weaker literacy skills. At the age of 11, she started learning French, going on to do a home stay in Pornichet, France at age 15. During her two months there, she developed strong French skills and an even stronger love of crêpes salées (“savory crepes”).
While in France, she also started learning Spanish (all students in France are required to learn English one other foreign language of their choice), a language she went on to study more intensively when she returned to the states. The language came quickly for her as she had already been exposed to a great deal of Spanish growing up in California, and likely thanks to Spanish's many overlaps with the French she already knew.
In college, she started learning Italian purely for fun, but opted to study on her own instead of falling asleep in early morning Italian classes designed for complete beginners.
After college, she took up Portuguese for no particular reason that she can remember. A friend suggested Com Licença!: Brazilian Portuguese for Spanish Speakers to her, which she used as both an educational tool and sleeping pill. She jokes that despite speaking 7 languages, she finds grammar study quite boring. I definitely second that!
From 2000 to 2001, Susanna worked in post-war Bosnia where she quickly picked up Bosnian. The language's membership in the Slavic Language family (to which her native Russian also belongs) gave her a big head start in the language.
Susanna's Language Learning Tips
You have to be willing to take on (and develop) a different personality when learning a new language.
“If you don't feel open to moving your body in a different way, being a different a person, then that is a surefire way to fail at language learning.”
Use music as much as you can in language learning. It's not just fun to listen to good music; music actually activates more of your brain than languages and is one of the best ways to improve your pronunciation, accent, timing, and even grammar. Spanish music, for example, is one of the best ways to learn the subjunctive as many songs talk about doubt.
“The reason people have strong accents in other languages is because they are playing the music of the foreign language in the tempo and rhythm of their mother tongue. It’s like dancing the waltz to cha-cha music.”
You can learn any language, anywhere. Use whatever resources are available to you and don't underestimate your access to foreign languages in your backyard. As Susanna observed in post-war Bosnia, people managed to learn foreign languages using whatever radio or TV signals they could pick up.
“If someone can, in a war situation, learn a language under an extreme amount of duress, and very few resources for obvious reasons, then when people tell me, ‘Oh, I don't have $2,000 to go to Costa Rica and pay for Spanish classes', I just want to smack them on the head!”
You of course need to learn a language's grammar if you want to reach a professional level in a language, but shoving grammar down your throat in the early days is probably not the best strategy for most people. It's better to get a feel for the language first and develop a strong emotional resonance.
Get as much listening exposure as you can to your target language. This is the way children learn, and adults need to train their ears, too. As Dr. Paul Sulzberger demonstrated in his PhD thesis at Victoria University of Wellington in New Zealand, listening to a language before you begin formal study of its vocabulary and grammar better prepares you to recognize words.
More About Susanna
For more information about Susanna, check out her excellent book Language Is Music: Over 100 Fun & Easy Tips to Learn Foreign Languages, her YouTube channel, and her website, Create Your World Books.
Paulino Brener is educator, performer, social media manager, and one of the few people I know who has managed to successfully blend all of his passions (foreign languages, teaching, crafts, social media, and performance arts) into one. And get paid to do so! In our interview, he discusses creative ways to harness one's passions in foreign language learning, whether as teacher or learner.
Listen to the Show
Mo' Info
For more information about Paulino, visit PaulinoBrener.com.
In my interview with Jason West, the creator of English Out There, we discuss the weaknesses of traditional English schools, methodologies, and materials, and how his approach aims to overcome them. I especially enjoyed his effective, no-nonsense approach to language learning, his efforts to bridge the gap between traditional classroom-based learning and independent study, and his willingness to share before-and-after speech samples of his students.Listen to the Show
Mo' Info
For information about Jason and English Out There, check out his site, EnglishOutThere.com, and show, The Languages Out There Podcast.
Arkady Zilberman, creator of Language Bridge and a former simultaneous interpreter in Russia, addresses what is perhaps the greatest impediment to adult foreign language learning success: cross-translation to and from one's native language. Few learners are probably aware this sub-concious process goes on at all, but Arkady's extensive experience learning languages, interpreting, and experimenting on himself and other learners have proven that it does indeed occur. As he points out in our interview, even many seemingly successful foreign language learners still translate to and from their native language, but can just do so at such a rate that they can't perceive the process.It is no secret that the vast majority of adult foreign language learners fail to ever reach fluency in their target tongues, and there are many theories behind this abysmal success rate. In Arkady's view, there is one primary root cause: 95% of adults are “foreign language incapable”, unable to learn foreign languages easily (if at all) through traditional or even modern methods because their brains adopted logical (as opposed to visual) thinking as they matured into adults.
As the name implies, Language Bridge attempts to create a “bridge” over this logical-thinking barrier, turning off sub-conscious translation to and from one's native language, while also fostering visual thinking in learners who have long since lost such an ability.
Language Bridge is currently available in the following versions, each available free for 6 months:
- English localized for Native Chinese speakers
- English localized for Native Russian speakers
- English localized for Native Spanish speakers
- English localized for Native Czech speakers
- Russian localized for Native English speakers
Listen to the Show
Read the Transcript
John Fotheringham: [0:06] This is Episode seven of the Foreign Language Mastery podcast. I'm your host, John Fotheringham. In today's show I interview Arkady Zilberman, the creator of Language Bridge. For a transcript of this episode and more tips, tools, and tech for learning any language, go to languagemastery.com. Here is the phone interview originally recorded February 8th, 2011.
John: [0:33] Hello there.
Arkady Zilberman: [0:34] Hi.
John: [0:36] Good to talk to you again.
Arkady: [0:37] Thank you John.
John: [0:38] How have you been?
Arkady: [0:40] Oh, good. Working a lot on my method now and I published a few articles, prepared presentation for a round table discussion and there is good news, I have now found an investor and a marketing group.
John: [0:57] Oh, congratulations. Fantastic.
Arkady: [0:59] Yeah. So it's moving, it's moving.
John: [1:00] Yes.
Arkady: [1:02] I have also decided that we will now offer all versions of Language Bridge software free for six months so that both the students and teachers will have more options to try it and I hope that in this way I will get more testimonials. By the way, yesterday on that Kirsten's blog, one user of Language Bridge has published his testimonial. His name is Mick and it's a fantastic testimonial. I never met him, but he has given that his description of his experience and it's a very unique testimonial because he used both, Pimsleur method and the Language Bridge method.
John: [1:59] I think it's wonderful you were able to do the interview with Kirsten because I think she has a pretty established reputation now in the industry and I think she can help bring your work into the ears and lives of more people.
Arkady: [2:17] Yes, that is very helpful I understand, but however of course I also understand that there are problems because the linguists would prefer to use the methods which they know and it's normal.
John: [2:35] Right. Let's use that as our jump?off point then. Comparing Language Bridge with “the methods that a linguist would know.”
Arkady: [2:45] It's different in that I think that cross?translation is the main barrier in learning a language. Here cross?translation is a very interesting term because as I describe it, it actually has nothing to do with translation.
John: [3:09] Right. We should add that you're formerly a simultaneous interpreter. I think it's important for the listeners to understand that you have that background.
Arkady: [3:20] Yes, actually I have a degree in science and I worked for nearly 20 years as a simultaneous interpreter in the former Soviet Union and during my work I made hundreds if not thousands of experiments and I have found that simultaneous translation is actually not using two languages, but using one language at a time. It sounds strange, but that was the foundation of the Language Bridge. [4:02] In other words, on your blog you have a guest post by Antonio and I remember it starts with, “Is your native language a help or a hindrance?” Now, answering your question I will most definitely say that it is a hindrance and here I will also say that although the statistics is that only five percent of people successfully learn a foreign language, only five percent.
[4:39] If this statistic is confirmed, for example, by the founder of Total Physical Response System, Dr. James Asher. And I was trying to find an answer to this question, why it is so that some people very easily learn a foreign language and most have great difficulty in it.
[5:07] I came to the conclusion that it's because our native language becomes a barrier, especially in adults. In other words, we try to add a foreign language to the native language and that's why actually when we learn a foreign language we use bilingual information that is we use two languages. Necessarily we use native language and we actually learn foreign words as a translation to and from the native language.
[5:45] We try to add, to say, English to a native language. In my case, my native language is Russian, so when I thought that if any Russian tried to learn a foreign language most of them try to add English to Russian and that wouldn't work.
[6:04] It works only in very rare cases, only five percent. 95% have great difficulties. It's interesting that I first noted it and I called it cross?translation, actually its subconscious activity when learning a foreign language you always use, maybe without even special efforts, it's just subconscious, you don't notice it. Here I can give you one example.
[6:38] Rosetta Stone, a very famous program, a great program, and they start showing you some pictures, to say, a horse, a table, and anything. And they then give the word for the picture and the word in English.
[7:01] The assumption was that if you exclude the native language from the learning process that you can learn as a child in my opinion it's strong. I think it's impossible because subconsciously, most people will subconsciously first see this word ‘table' in their native language. In my case in Russian I will see that it is “stohl” and then they will see it as a table. This is very hard alleviate. We actually do have a special tool to solve this problem and at this point I want to mention the great book and video by Norman Doidge.
[7:59] He is a psychologist and a medical researcher and in his book he studied all scientists work for the last 50 years. Following them, he actually came to the conclusion that adults have great difficulties in learning a foreign language because of, as he calls it, “tyranny of the mother tongue”.
John: [8:31] Yes. I love that quote.
Arkady: [8:33] Yes. Actually that explains, I didn't formulate it that way. I knew for many years and I tried to explain it to linguists. It's very hard, by the way, to a linguist to understand it. It may be very hard for you, because linguists never had that problem.
John: [8:58] Well, see, this is actually one thing I think we disagree on, because my background is in linguistics, but most linguists that I know don't actually speak a foreign language. I think the definition of “linguist” is very broad. You have a degree in linguistics, you're a linguist, or are you someone who speaks one or many foreign languages, then you're a linguist. [9:22] So, I think your definition right now you're talking about is for the latter. Someone who has learned one or many foreign languages well. For that person, they might not understand why others have a hard time, is that correct?
Arkady: [9:37] Not quite. As a linguist I may call… let's broaden that term and just tell any English teacher or foreign language, actually, teacher or those linguists who write books on the lessons, programs for learning a foreign language, because they never encountered that problem, it's very hard for them to understand. They think that the cross?translation cannot be sold and so let's forget about it. [10:19] That's, well, the normal condition for any student, to overcome his native mother tongue tyranny. But then, if we agree on that, we may mention that briefly that in the history there were a few methods, which overcome this impediment and I mentioned in those articles on Kirsten's blog that Callan method is one method, then the Crazy English if you know about that one from China.
John: [10:59] That was one that wanted to also talk about. My experience with the Crazy English method, I'm actually quite skeptical because it actually doesn't seem to fit with other things you've said in that you talk about how the listen and repeat after me method is going to become extinct because it obviously does not work. I don't see how that's different from Crazy English. From what I've seen there's a guy on the stage and he's yelling out phrases and then the whole audience is just repeating after him.
Arkady: [11:28] Well, yeah, it's very different and here's why. First of all, it's not learning its rehearsing. Someone had given a very good term. It's not learning English. When you repeat in a crowd at that time, because you're all together and you repeat at the same time, it's very unusual activity and because of that your subconscious cross translation to and from your native tongue is turned off. [12:02] But neither the founder of Callan method nor Mr. Li, the founder of the Crazy English, didn't know actually how it works. They came to it from the practical point of view. It works. So they have quite a number of followers, but of course it's not the method which would be recommended to learn English in the stadium.
John: [12:30] I see. So your point is that that method turns off cross translation…
Arkady: [12:33] Yes.
John: [12:34] But it's not enough. It's not a complete way that you would recommend of actually going about it.
Arkady: [12:39] Yeah, of course. First of all, it cannot be used as a basis for the blended learning because there is another very important term and I think that in the future the blended learning when we have to help to learn English in china to 350 million people, young adult learners, then the blended learning probably is the only alternative. [13:08] The blended learning means that you have to use software with prerecorded lessons which a learner can use at home 24/7 anytime, anywhere and he will have also an option to sign up for some public classes maybe or if he can afford for private lessons. But most of them will use public lessons where they can ask questions, where they can solve their problems, where they can be tested and get the feedback of the results of their self?testing.
[13:50] So the blended learning, I think, is also the only alternative in my point for the future of meeting the demand, the gigantic demand, in learning English, which in that article is described as English mania. Probably you know of that term also.
John: [14:10] In my experience as a teacher I made every effort to try to deemphasize my role and deemphasize the importance of a teacher, emphasize the importance of the individual learner's motivation, attitude, and choice of materials that they are interested in, which I think is something we agree on, but they were not sold. [14:30] It was very difficult to convince the learners that they actually don't need a teacher or at least that a teacher cannot force the language into their brains. Only their brain can do that at a subconscious level.
[14:44] I think that that's actually, in terms of perception, in terms of marketing that's a major hurdle that I think all of us still have to overcome in addressing especially the Chinese market.
Arkady: [14:57] I totally agree with you, however, I think that first of all we have to select one point and maybe to direct students to that point. The point is, which we just briefly mentioned before, that we have to answer the question, “What is the main barrier?” [15:17] We have to explain the conventional…by the way, your presentation about the conventional methods, that is a great, great presentation. However, we should first solve that problem and the problem is we have to explain it, maybe demonstrate it, and then to give the tool that we must probably explain a little bit more.
[15:49] When we talk about simultaneous repetition it's not clear enough because actually the essence here not in simultaneous repetition. The essence is that we use three actions at the same time.
[16:09] So a learner reads to say the text on the screen, the learner hears in their headset, necessarily in their headset, and repeats at the same time. By performing three actions at the same time the tyranny of the mother tongue is silenced. It is turned on automatically. There is no way and I determined it just experimentally. And thousands and thousands of customers already learned English now, especially most of them are in Russia, but now I try to bring this method to other countries, especially to China.
[16:51] That's why I have already produced a software which I, at this point, even offer for free. This software is localized into Chinese, it's localized into Spanish, into Russian, and one teacher actually localized it into a Czech language.
[17:11] So if you use those three actions at the same time the subconscious cross translation would be turned off. That is the main point and to explain that maybe that will change the attitude of Chinese learners because they know 4,000 words. Actually, every college graduate knows 4,500 words and he cannot speak English.
John: [17:38] Actually, they've memorized the translation of those words.
Arkady: [17:43] Exactly.
John: [17:44] They can see it on a piece of paper and know what it means, but if they hear the same word they won't know what it is.
Arkady: [17:50] Exactly. So that should give a starting point.
John: [17:55] So I guess one of my curiosities would be from turning off cross translation and getting those three…well there is actually two forms of input and one form of output all done simultaneously, from that stage to actually understanding the meaning of what you're saying or hearing. That's something that I'd really like to understand in a more cognitive, linguistic sense.
Arkady: [18:20] I will explain how it is accomplished. First of all, when you do all three of those actions at the same time, and you are very clearly described it's two inputs and one output, that actually activates your both right and left brain. Why you don't have any problems because the program is localized. That means that everything what is there is in two languages. And although I say that we have to separate languages and your native language, mother tongue is there, but it is used, I would say in a different mode. [19:07] For example, if you start a new lesson you can read with your eyes in your mother tongue and imagine the situation because you do not pronounce the word. Actually when in the class I always even recommend to keep your tongue between your teeth like this so that you cannot pronounce the word.
[19:34] By the way, that opens your visualization again. You visualize the text. You do not read it or remember it. Then you immediately go to the next reel where you see the same text in English and you read it, you listen to it, and you repeat it. So you know what it's about because you were introduced to the images of the lesson in your native tongue.
John: [20:04] Right. So the context is clear, but then once you actually get into the drills the idea is you're not going to be translating word for word. You're trying to build that new language center by using your mouth, your ears, and your eyes.
Arkady: [20:18] Exactly. Exactly. More than that. There is one great additional tool built into the software. Whenever you have a problem with the word or with the meaning of the word you can click on it with your right mouse button and translation into the mother tongue will appear, but only for 10 seconds. [20:42] So you will see it and the time is enough to create the image and because you hear this word and you continue pronouncing the whole sentence you even don't notice that you got the image not the translation. You don't remember translation. You don't see it. You don't work in it. It is given to open your…actually to activate your visual capability again and many learners have noticed that their even memory was improved because their visual capacity was returned back.
John: [21:22] Interesting.
Arkady: [21:23] So there's no problem in understanding. That's, again, a difficult part to understand because some teachers in those comments and everywhere they see a contradiction here. That I say that we have to silence the mother tongue and at the same time I give everything in two languages. [21:47] There's no contradiction at all. I give it in a totally different environment, totally different application.
John: [21:54] Right. That's something that I think needs to be very clear to the end user and to the teacher. There is two purposes here of the native language and the target. The native is there only for creating that mental context.
Arkady: [22:07] Exactly. Yeah, John, but we have to maybe go into some details and everything. We have to write about, we have to explain it, because even to a linguist first it's hard to understand because it's so different from what we use now. When you will read that testimonial of Mick's, and it's interesting he mentioned that he noted that sometimes while repeating after the speaker, he was one or two words ahead of it. [22:43] That is a very interesting observation made by many, many learners. Because when it becomes automatic, when the speech center of the target language, in this case English language, is formed and you see or hear the image, you are in the visual mode. The word appears on the tip of your tongue as if by itself.
John: [23:08] Right.
Arkady: [23:09] He was surprised. He couldn't even understand where it comes from. I want to explain to him, to you, to everybody it comes from the language speech center in the brain, which is formed as a result of a three?action approach…
John: [23:27] Right.
Arkady: [23:28] …three actions at the same time.
John: [23:30] Linguistically speaking, it would also be called spreading.
Arkady: [23:33] There are two different types of spreading. One spreading you are talking about is actually the case when you still have both, your native language and your target language. Still the spreading can work there. Because there are many, many students who are learners who actually speak from this, I would call, “two?language center.” Because, there is no such thing, but it seems to them that they speak because they translate quickly enough.
John: [24:12] Right.
Arkady: [24:13] But it takes a lot of brain power…
John: [24:15] Yes.
Arkady: [24:16] …and very few can do it. Most fail and they just stop learning a foreign language because they cannot do it. [24:23] Now, the spreading when you have separate languages, when you actually do a new language speech center in the brain…by the way, it starts working even when you know 300 words. I just experimentally determined it, by many hundreds of students who have noted that after about seven or eight lessons they already feel that some of their expressions come to them automatically. So you don't need much effort to pronounce something which you feel.
John: [25:07] I think even a lot of language enthusiasts, teachers, linguists or even our basic same camp we're all on the same side of basically saying that the traditional way doesn't work. But even on this side of the wall there are still, obviously, many subdivisions. [25:25] I think one of those major subdivisions is listen first, speak later, or speak as soon as possible. But I think, that as your method has proved and as many others out there have proved, the disadvantage of speaking soon has been highly exaggerated.
Arkady: [laughs] [25:41] Not only exaggerated, but it's not quite true because…I think you were one of the first who mentioned that one of the main reasons of the conventional methods didn't produce desired results is because they considered foreign languages as information…
John: [26:06] Yes.
Arkady: [26:07] …although it is a skill.
John: [26:08] Yes.
Arkady: [26:09] But if it is information, and you base all your research on this assumption that it is information, then we have a lot of problems here. I would like here to mention one of the most, I would say, scientifically based methods in the world, and that is the Pimsleur method. You very correctly describe it that it was introduced in 1967 in a most scientifically based paper. [26:46] But, the Pimsleur method, a very scientific method, was correct because at that time there was only one theory, one assumption that a foreign language is information. If you consider it as information, his method is right.
[27:09] But if you consider it that it is a skill, and you have to separate…you have to salvage his mother tongue, and you can actually very quickly, in a few months, you can start forming a new language speech center, and you can learn a language in less than a year and be absolutely proficient in it. Then his method becomes obsolete.
[27:36] It doesn't meet the current level of knowledge. A foreign language is a skill. If you learn it as a skill, then his famous graduated interval recall theory is not applicable any more. It's not information.
John: [27:56] Right.
Arkady: [27:57] If you remember, once again, that learner Mick he said he was keeping learning Pimsleur three times in a row; all three levels, and he was keeping forgetting it. Why, because as information, especially bilingual information, it's our protective mechanism. We are doomed to forget everything while in 30 days 90 percent of information is lost. Especially information which was not used. So that is the catch?22.
John: [28:34] I think that's why so many of these people continue to be frustrated. Despite so much effort, they still fail.
Arkady: [28:43] Exactly.
John: [28:44] What is it they're failing at? They're failing at a mission impossible, which is…
Arkady: [28:49] Yes.
John: [28:50] …memorize an almost infinite number of facts…
Arkady: [28:53] Yes.
John: [28:54] …about an organic system which is not fact based.
Arkady: [28:57] You know that Chinese learners are very motivated. They are very capable. They are learning English maybe four hours a day and still no result because the system is wrong. Now, why it is wrong is because you can memorize words, and they do memorize words, but speech is a subconscious process where memory doesn't play practically any role.
John: [29:27] Right.
Arkady: [29:28] We confuse two different processes. When we speak, we do not…how to say a subconscious process…
John: [29:37] Yep.
Arkady: [29:38] …we do not recall words. We do not use memory. The words appear on the tip of our tongue called forward, if you will, by the image, by the feeling, by association. We speak in chunks. Another interesting point that in language we do not learn words at all. A separately taken word doesn't have any meaning. We learn by chunks, by sentences.
John: [30:12] Absolutely. An attempt to memorize English or any language through linear memorization of individual words is doomed to failure.
Arkady: [30:20] Yes, but, nevertheless, that's all of what we do, and that's very strange. And actually to me, it's very painful even to observe it because it seems to me so illogical.
John: [30:34] It's illogical from the point of view of what works to learn a language. It's very logical from the point of view of what's easiest to teach and test in a formal setting. [laughs]
Arkady: [laughs] [30:47] Yes, I understand it.
John: [30:49] I think the only thing that ultimately will work is to show people that it does work. I think the comment you had from Mick…
Arkady: [30:55] Yes.
John: [30:56] …that's exactly what you're forgetting, it's people that have actually used it and said, “Wow, it actually works.”
Arkady: [31:04] John, I have hundreds and hundreds of such testimonials. Some of them are on the website. What is interesting that I received actually, in the form of a testimonial, a whole essay from one of the Chinese learner. He told me that he came to Canada to continue his education. When he came here, after being the best student in China, after having the highest score in all those certificates which are necessary to graduate, he came to Toronto to find out that he doesn't understand English and he cannot speak English. [laughs]
John: [31:59] Yep.
Arkady: [32:01] And he was shocked.
John: [32:03] Yeah.
Arkady: [32:04] He started to look for the cure. He was lucky. He found Language Bridge. He started using it. It helped him, and in response, he sent me his testimonial. What's also interesting is in his essay he described that actually simultaneous repetition was used for centuries in Asian culture for different things. Not only for martial arts…
John: [32:33] Yeah.
Arkady: [32:34] …for learning music, for learning mathematics, for learning how to sing. For many, many things it was used there for centuries. So they're very well familiar with it. Somehow, in our culture we never came to this. I came across it by pure chance because I worked as a simultaneous interpreter. That's why I came to it. But actually this approach has a lot of history behind it. It has a lot of logical explanation and rationality, I would say. It is a scientific approach.
John: [33:18] It's a human approach, I would also say, in that it mimics how we actually learn all of our physical skills.
Arkady: [33:28] Exactly.
John: [33:29] You mentioned martial arts, and I often use that analogy. Can you imagine trying to teach somebody how to perform a certain movement by explaining you need to bend your elbow at 45 degrees…
Arkady: [laughs] [33:41]
John: [33:42] …and apply 24 kilograms of force, and shift the weight from your… But that's exactly how we try to teach a language. It's absurd.
Arkady: [33:51] Yes, yes, and you know what? Actually, I have used a few times this phrase, that when you start learning and teaching by Language Bridge, then all your students become language?capable again. And here, let's come to that point again and maybe elaborate on that a little bit more. That you were going ask me about that…
John: [34:16] Yes.
Arkady: [34:17] I just remind you about that 95?5 percent ratio. What is that?
John: [34:21] That's one thing you bring up often, is that 95 percent of adults are “foreign language incapable.” And I think my key point, and this is something that much of foreign language mastery is about, is that, yes indeed, obviously, 95 percent, or I would even say higher in many populations, percent of adults fail to learn a foreign language to fluency. Absolutely, there's no argument there. [34:51] However, why is that the case? I think that's where we might slightly differ in our views. I do agree that cross?translation is a huge part of it, no doubt. But I think I ascribe attitude, motivation, and what materials you use as also very large percentages of that. And a lot of this is, of course, experience. A lot of it is anecdotal. But some of it is scientific, but it's hard to nail down any of the effective factors in language learning scientifically. I mean, is the only way to… [overlapping discussion]
Arkady: [35:30] No, no, John, I cannot agree with this, and here is why. If you talk about motivation, then you cannot find more motivated people than Chinese learners…
John: [35:42] Well, motivation…
Arkady: [35:43] …and they have the greatest difficulties.
John: [35:45] Absolutely. But when I say attitude, I don't just mean only motivation. I don't think those are synonymous. I think motivation is one subset of attitude. But when I talk about attitude, I mean attitude towards language learning, attitude towards one's self?identity, attitude in terms of, do you think you can actually learn a foreign language? [36:04] I want to put China aside for a moment, because I think they are, absolutely, they are very motivated. I'm talking more about North American learners of Japanese, or North American learners of Chinese or other languages. And I think across the board, most of them do believe, A, languages are hard. They think that they cannot learn a foreign language, which is a big part of the support of saying that they're language?incapable. I think a lot of that's a self?fulfilling prophecy, where you say, “Oh, I can't do this,” and then, of course you can't.
[36:35] But I think we're parsing hairs here. We agree that no doubt, 95 percent of people fail. Whether that's because it's attitude, or because it's method only, who knows? I think we could probably argue all day about it. I'm more interested in the solution.
Arkady: [36:49] And John, OK, I heard what you said, but let me give my point. And maybe if you will just listen and try to use more intuition than your past experience, just intuition and logic, maybe you will see it from a different angle. [37:13] I don't believe that attitude and motivation is a very…it is important, but not crucial. It's not of paramount importance, because they failed, and that is a statistical fact. And we already know that one of the main reasons is their subconscious cross?translation, or the tyranny of their mother tongue.
[37:37] Now, there's another explanation, and maybe it will make it more easier to digest this new approach. Most people, adults especially, at the age of 18, and they become logical. What that means is, because we learn so many subjects in school , because we learn everything, we think everything, and because the ego at this point becomes our controller, everything compare to the past, to our past experience. And whatever comes into our field of vision, we evaluate according to our own experience. And so, we become very, very logical.
[38:28] Now, it's just statistical fact that five percent of people remain visual. I cannot find explanation to this, but that is their nature, maybe their human nature, or that probability theory and the distribution curve. Those people who are very visual, they can learn a foreign language by any methods. That's why you are a linguist, I am a self?made linguist, because we both are visual.
[39:07] We can learn, and I can learn any language in a very short time, because I am visual. And I actually determined it experimentally, because when I do simultaneous repetition, do you know what happens? I see what the speaker is telling me. I see it, I don't hear it.
[39:32] And I can give you one case, and it looks like it was a practical case, like, anecdote. I knew very little German at that time, and there was a mistake in the program. And one of the lecturers turned out to be German instead of English. And I started to translate simultaneously from German into Russian, and I practically didn't notice the difference, because it doesn't matter to me.
[40:04] I don't hear the words, I see the images. And I translated it, and then I started to think how it happened. I don't hear the words, I see the image. So, those five percent are lucky people who somehow preserve that ability, and they can learn any language.
[40:30] Now, what happens? And that's why I disagree with your approach, and it was a lot of published scientific articles about that…again, it's because when their languages were information. Now, when it is more a skill, we do not have really research in this field. Because if you consider it as a skill, if you use a method similar to Language Bridge, when you turn off, you silence the mother tongue, then you become visual again.
And that is why a few times I have written about it, explained it in my lectures, in my [indecipherable 41: [41:07] 19] I.Q. classes, that this method restores your language capability. Any learner who follows the Language Bridge instructions becomes visual again. He becomes language?capable again. He can learn. Anybody can learn a language. And of course, motivation and attitude is important, but it is not a deciding factor.
John: [41:43] The point you make where anybody, regardless of their attitude, if they actually do this method will learn, I think that's a key point.
Arkady: [41:51] Exactly, yes.
John: [41:53] I think, though, back to my point, to get somebody to spend the time to do it in the first place, that's one of the first obstacles. That absolutely is going to be attitudinal. They have to be motivated, and they have to want to do it, and they have to believe it's going to work, and I think that…
Arkady: [42:10] Yes, John, yes I understand. You are absolutely right, but you know what? And it would be difficult, but we should remember that any chain reaction of dramatic change in any field requires only four or five percent of a sample to believe. And the more we get such testimonials, and we'll get them in hundreds and thousands, the more it will become popular. Besides, the Language Bridge software is organized in a very special way, and a very unusual way. You would never find such features, I will briefly now name them here, in any other software program. [42:58] For example, you can print out any lesson or any drill. You can transfer it to any mp3 player, and you can work on it not necessarily on a computer. You can work on it on your mp3 player, on a phone, anywhere, anytime. And besides, if you understand the fundamentals of it, you can actually take a lot of free resources on Internet. There are thousands, millions of free resources they are underused. Why? Because, students, learners, they don't believe that they can do it.
[43:41] Now, we have to show it. We have to explain them why they could not, and why they can now. That's what I try to show to you. And if I will be successful to show it to you, then maybe together we'll be successful to show it to somebody else. That's the chain reaction.
John: [44:03] Yes, I'm converted [laughs] .
Arkady: [44:05] Oh, great!
John: [44:07] I have no doubt in the efficacy. I think when you're 99 percent agreed with somebody, then it's interesting to talk about the one percent you disagree.
Arkady: [44:15] Yes, yes, and that's a great pleasure, John, and that's why I am very grateful now for this interview with you. Because I found that since you created that presentation about the conventional methods, and you are looking for something new, that's why I was sure that you will be interested in this approach.
John: [44:38] I am indeed. Well, thank you for getting in touch and being patient with me getting back to you. And I look forward to talking again.
Arkady: [44:47] Thank you very much, thank you.
John: [44:49] All right, good luck. [music]
John: [44:55] For a transcript of this episode, and more tips, tools, and tech for learning any language, go to languagemastery.com.
Mo' Info
For more information, visit Arkady's site, Language Bridge, and check out his 3-part article series on Kirsten Winkler's blog.
Randy Hunt is on a mission to learn a new language fluently every year. His current project is Italian, with Lithuanian as a side-project saved for weekend fun. Randy has his language-learning head screwed on tightly, and I firmly agree with his contention that learners can reach “conversational fluency” (the ability to talk with native speakers on a variety of topics) in a year if you spend enough time doing the right things. As we both have observed, most learners neither spend enough time nor do the right things.Listen to the Show
Read the Transcript
John: This is episode five of the Foreign Language Mastery podcast. I'm your host John Fotheringham. In today's show I interview Randy “The Yearlyglot” from yearlyglot.com. To read a transcript of this episode and to find tips, tools and tech for mastering any foreign language, go to languagemastery.com. Here is the phone interview, originally recorded June 6, 2010.
John: Maybe we can start out…just tell me a little bit more about how you got started in language learning and what languages you've learned so far. And then I'll be asking you a bit more about your Yearlyglot project.
Randy: Maybe I should have prepared a little bit so that I would have some canned answers, but that's all right.
John: I like the uncanned answers better. The real deal.
Randy: [01:03] Nice. I guess my whole life I've always been interested in language just in general. I don't really have a good explanation for why. I started all the way back in kindergarten. My kindergarten teacher actually taught us Spanish words at the end of every day.One new Spanish word. So that might actually be the thing that got me going in this direction. By middle school I was taking Spanish classes. In high school I was taking German classes and French classes. One of my best friends in high school was a Filipino guy who have some trouble with the English language because he and his family had just moved here. He and I took up a pretty close friendship just on a principal that he asked for some help on the first day and I gave it to him. So in addition in everything else he taught me a lot of Filipino Tagalog…
[02:06] I just sort of picked up on everything every time it was put in front of me. I would have never taken the German and French classes except for the school didn't offer anything past Spanish II. It was weird. I just wanted to keep doing language and I ran out of Spanish so I switched to German and then I met this Filipino guy and then learned some French and before you know it I'm like, wow, it's not so hard. I want to learn every language.
John: Right. It is addictive that's for sure. So the whole yearlyglot idea of learning any language in one year or less is that something you do help more recently or is that something can always gone towards…
Randy: That actually is a very recent development. It comes from the back of learning Russian pretty much fluently in one year. After everybody told me it would take six, seven, eight years of study. I still don't claim to be an expert, but I put in some time and did the work and after one year I'm pretty fluent in Russian for a guy who only been learning for a year.
[03:09] Everybody says it is one of the hardest language which is if I con do it with that I should be able to do with anything. I don't see why anybody else couldn't do it especially with the easier language. Something like a Romance language that's so close to English anyways. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to learn that in a year. But it proves that you can do that a lot of times in three months.
John: I often say, if you do things right there's no reason you can't…at least get to a modicum of fluency in six months. I think that is a good, realistic target. I think six years is ridiculous but that gets to the issue which is, if you do it the old academics in the classroom will take six years.
Randy: Right.
John: That's maybe the next question I have for you is, how exactly do you go about learning the language that you could do it in under a year?
Randy: I never really formalized a learning method until the last third writing in the blog and now I'm starting to get it really in front of me and seen it all.
[04:05] If I move this over here it would work better and that sort of thing. Actually I'm starting to see a lot of logic behind some of the more commercial products like you think of the Rosetta Stone or something like that and all of us in the community kind of ridicule Rosetta Stone but there are some things they do right. I think particularly the order in which you go about things you start of with some really basic stuff and then you just build on that. I think if you see returns quickly you get encouraged. I guess that's my biggest thing is if you can get encouraged you will keep doing it.So I try to do things at…if I can learn how to say, “Where is…” and then I can learn how to say, “Thank you”. And then I can learn how to say, “Excuse me”. I can immediately turn those three things into excuse me, where is whatever. Thank you. And now I actually had small connection at the cause of just learning three things.
John: [05:03] Right.
Randy: So I think that that's really what I tried. I try to find a minimum amount of learning that you can get the maximum usage out of and I actually turn it into practical example sentence because I know those sort of things. Like I said, if you get really encouraged by what you're learning you'll feel more momentum and you'll keep going.
John: How do you feel about the whole input versus output debate? I mean full disclosure. I'm definitely of the input camp. Though I've lived abroad for most of the last decade. It's not practical for those that are going to be moving to Japan tomorrow. To spend six months on listening and reading input.
Randy: And by the same token, it's also not practical for those who are not going to move to expect to do a lot of output either. I think that the input versus output debate is mostly…it feels to me mostly like a constructive disagreement sort of manufactured for the sake of ratings or clicks or whatever. Anyway, because really you need both.
[06:13] It might serve you better to have more output if you're in person and it might serve you better to have more input. But at the end if you don't do both you're not going to learn. So I think that the debate itself is kind of silly. It's entertaining but if it lost the entertainment value a long time ago for me.
John: I have my opinions but I really wanted just share the opinions of others that…what's worth for them? Because obviously everyone's different. and what it's works for me won't necessarily work for everybody. Although I do think 90% of the things probably work for everybody and it's that extra 10% that is different. And that's why you need to present a variety of method.
Randy: Yeah, absolutely. It's like the parade of principle of 80/20. Everybody can benefit from that 80.
John: I think we've read the same book. So back to then, what's worth for you? So you've build on the basics which makes sense. What other do's and don'ts can you share? I know there's a lot.
Randy: [07:13] My biggest don't. I love to ramble on and on about don'ts. Maybe it's a little too negative but…
John: The first post I put on my language blog was the top 10 not to do list items in in the language.
Randy: I think that my biggest don't is don't put too much pressure on yourself. People worry about how far back they are in the book or how much chapters they've done or how many words they know. It becomes so stressful that you're actually…you lower the quality of your learning for the sake of getting more quantity. For me that's the biggest don't. It's easy to over stress yourself. It's all about staying positive. Anybody who has a positive attitude can succeed.
[08:04] I look at people…here in Chicago, it's very diverse. It's a very…like a world community. And I'm everyday, surrounded by people speaking hundreds of different languages. And what's interesting to me is that when they speak to me they don't speak correctly or properly. But they're not afraid to do it.
John: Right.
Randy: And I think about people I know who are like, “Oh, I'm trying to learn Spanish.” or “I'm trying to learn this.” And you'll never hear them actually do it. They never tried. They just say they're trying. I'm on the bus with somebody who is asking for directions and they're butchering English but they're not afraid to do it.
John: Right.
Randy: That's so important.
John: The fear of the pain of doing something I think that turns so many people off of whether it's a language, whether it's getting in shape. It's all the same. It's using the fear of the task is worsening the actual task itself.
Randy: [09:02] Absolutely. The anticipation of, “Oh, it's going to be so much work.” But…I was watching an interview with Will Smith recently and he was talking about his dad have a shop and broke down the brick wall and then asked his sons to rebuild the brick wall. And the kid suppose to say, “Oh, it's impossible. That would take forever.”
[09:23] Then his dad said, “I don't care how you do it. Don't think about building the whole wall. Just lay one brick and just make sure every time that you lay that brick perfectly you don't care about anything else. And day by day and brick by brick after several weeks or months or he didn't really say how long but had rebuild the brick wall of the shop.
[09:44] That's so motivational. When you think of building things…don't think of how far you have to go or how long or how far the journey is. You just think about doing each step the best you can. Eventually you'll look back and you're surprised at how much you've done and how easy it's become.
John: [10:04] Right. That's really a good metaphor. I like that. Great.
Randy: Specially with languages because there is a lot of work. We'll be fooling ourselves to say, “Oh yeah. Anybody can do it in a week or two.” There is a lot but you can do those things that keeps you motivated. And then you can look back and say, “Holy cow! That whole journey was fun and it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be.”
[10:26] I really like the metaphor you drew to working out. That particularly, for me, has always been one my favorite analogies from pretty much anything difficult in life. Because I go to the gym every morning. I weight train in the morning before I work.
[10:40] Everyday I go in there and I have to push up a weigh. And I have a goal in mind…every time I go I try to push five more pounds than the last time. I don't always succeeded doing it. But week by week I am pushing more weight every time than I was a week before.
[11:02] You look at that long-term goal of, I want to bench-press 250 pounds or I want to squat for 100 pounds and you think, “Oh my god. That's far off and impossible.” But each week you look back and say, “Wow, I remember when I could only do 160.” Overtime, you watch yourself change and you watch your strength grow and what it does more than anything else in my opinion is it makes your mind strong. And when your mind is strong you believe you can do anything. And once your mind is strong there's nothing that can stop you. It might be days or weeks or months but there's no task you won't attack. That's the attitude I like to have.
John: Time plus effort.
Randy: Absolutely.
John: It is in the language matter that my main interest is martial arts. And I just like to share with people that the word Kung Fu did actually means skill through effort or skill through…
Randy: Nice.
John: And it's such a good analogy. The language. It's just doing it day in day out and eventually you'll get better.
[12:02] You can't not get better. One of the reason so many people fail is because they're just not doing it ultimately. Sitting in a classroom is not doing it. Even watching a movie. You put in a foreign language movie. That's not actually doing it. You must reactively doing it.
Randy: Right. Classroom. That's a really great topic for me to go on and on about. I think that, like I was saying, about the weight training and stuff and about your mind being strong.
[12:36] When you talk about signing in for a class that's always the really the cop out I think. You want to do something or you say you want to do something so you sign up for the class and that becomes like the token effort of saying, “Hey, I tried.” But the lessons are always so far apart and so short and even worse they're retarded by the fact that you have to teach a whole group. Not just one person.
[13:02] You're not even putting up a fraction of the effort. You will do spending that same time on your own with a book once a week. The worst thing about the classroom is that if you don't do it you can blame the teacher. “Oh, I tried but the teacher was no good.
[13:19] The class was no good. It was too far away or it was too expensive” or whatever. But you don't take any responsibility when you sign up for a class the way that you would if you just grab a book and just start reading it. Or grab a CD and start listening to it.
John: OK. Any other tips that you would like to add or any don'ts?
Randy: Well, there was one thing that sparks something in my mind that you said a moment ago too about a lot of people aren't trying, you know, it's a lot of work. And it reminded me of something else that…recently I just really started thinking about this is that everything is work.
[14:01] Any skill…anything that you do well is the product of hours and hours and hours of practice and work. Some people may have a talent in whatever. You can't teach talent. But nobody becomes successful on talent alone. You have to have the skill. When it comes to anything in life…but language is a great example of this. It really feels to me like people give up too early. And even at the easiest phase all you have to do is just correct that book or talk to that tutor or put on that CD or whatever it is that you do to study instead of turning on the TV And it's so easy, effortless to keep doing. Once you do something, you know, it's a have. It's effortless to keep doing that. It's actually more work for you to stop and go turn on that TV and ignore your language time. Sometimes I found it astounding that people actually give up. That means you;re making a choice to quit.
[15:08] Just like my gym metaphor. Again, if I get sick and I don't want to go in the gym because I'm not feeling well or something. I automatically start to miss it and after a day or two I'm like, I want to go in earlier and try to make up for all that time. There is a point like if you miss a lot of time like a few weeks or something.
[15:29] There is a point where that habit starts to fall off and then you have to do the work of rebuilding it. And the same thing is with everything certainly with languages. I just think that over all unless there's like a death in the family or something. There is no thing that can stop me from spending an hour or a day learning something about languages or whatever because that's what I want. How could I stop? I would have to make a conscious decision to actually stop.
John: That leads to another…I think the important point is it does take time. It does take consistency. But I also think that people overestimate how many hours a day it will take. They're so used to sitting in a classroom for two to three hours.
[16:10] And realistically I don't usually study or more than 15 or 30 minutes of the time. I just try to do that three times a day everyday. That's much, much more powerful than doing four hours a week but all at once.
Randy: Yeah. If you over burden your mind it starts to fight back against you. I do the same thing. I wake up in the morning and I browse a vocabulary list or I look at something or just read a blog entry or something for fifteen minutes.
[16:41] And then I head off to the gym. Go to work. On the ride home from work I spend 15, 30 minutes. However long it is depending on the traffic that day. look at some phrase list. So whatever I'm doing that particular day and again once a night. So yeah, probably about the same as you. Three times a day for maybe 15 to 30 minutes.
John: [17:01] As you said listening the way they work out on their way home. It's just making that a habit. It's, I'm going to do the dishes. Pop in the iPod. In line at the store, OK, put in the iPod. Every chance that you're not doing something that requires your 100% attention. That can become another learning opportunity.It doesn't have to be sitting down on a desk.
Randy: And I would even go so far as to say that like a lot of times when people like us use that analogy, you know, we say five minutes at the supermarket line or 15 minutes on the train. I think that listeners or readers sometimes get the impression that we're saying, “You should do that every time.” And really, that's not the case. All you need to do is just make use of one of those times over the course of your day.
[17:51] And you're already doing something. I don't spend every five minute line wait reading something about languages and I don't spend every cab ride or every train ride to rhyme the study of vocabulary. I just do sometimes. But it's enough times.
John: [18:08] That's a good point and that goes back the fear of doing it often prevents people from starting.
Randy: It can sound really scary when you hear people talk about it or you read some of these language hacking tips. All of these stuff, we're all trying to help people. That's why we're all here. All of us are trying to help people to see that it's easy. And sometimes there's so many tips that people get overwhelmed and they think it's going to be too hard.
John: I think in it's aggregate though it's doing a service. I think so many people do things so far their own way. And gets so fed up and they look it up this whole foreign language phobia and this belief that, “I'm just not going to learn any language which is like you'll never learn.” I mean, almost everybody I know is that way.
[19:00] It's that sort of the norm is, “I'm not good at languages.” And so I think it's a lot of us. A lot of voices. A lot of echoes to…hopefully, eventually get to…not everybody but at least those that want to learn. Which I just hope that enough of our voices reach them. That they can shake themselves out of these belief that they can't do it.
Randy: [19:22] Absolutely. And I think most of us probably all have similar stories about struggling with their first one or in my own personal struggle. This is going to sound funny from a guy who tells people it's easy to learn languages. But I actually have such a hard time hearing that sometimes I don't even understand English. I'm constantly asking people to repeat themselves and, you know, not understanding things that are said. And then you try to translate that into learning a foreign language. And it becomes a real challenge.
[20:01] So it's one of those things where even though I'm telling you…I'm telling telling anybody who will listen. I can learn a new language every year. I'm totally not talking about the challenging part that anybody else who does this is going to have an easier time than I am.
John: Very good. What is your current language project and what is the next one you think?
Randy: The current language project is Italian. Although it's never just one thing. I'm planning a trip to Lithuania in a few months. I allow myself the weekends to stray from Italian.
[20:42] So every weekend I'm learning a little bit of Lithuanian in anticipation of this trip but during the week I stay focused on Italian. But I haven't selected my language for next year and even if I have I wouldn't admit it to anyone but I do know that I'm starting to narrow in on one of maybe three. I'm very, very interested in Turkish. I'm living pretty close to Canada and I think that if I didn't take advantage of French that would be foolish. The third one possibly Arabic.
[21:21] So, I'm not really sure. I haven't chosen yet but I think that right now I'm teetering between those three. I could come out as a surprise and just pick something totally unexpected too.
John: All right. We'll just make a wrap up. If there's only one thing you want listeners to hear about language learning what would it be?
Randy: [21:38] When you showed somebody you've spent even the smallest amount of time to learn about them specially if you're American. Because we have a stigma to overcoming the world. If you show people that you have spent even smallest amount of time taking an interest in their language and in their culture it's so well-received that…it makes such a big difference on the way that you're perceived and the way that your whole dealings with that person go. I was just recently at the bar watching a hockey game. Go Blackhawks. I hope they win the Stanley Cup.
John: [22:12] Now you're speaking foreign language to me. I don't speak hockey. I'm sorry.
Randy: That's all right. A patron who had no place to sit was standing near my table and I started a talking to her. And I picked up on her a Russian accent. On a whim I'm assuming that I'm right because there are a lot of Polish people in this town too.
[22:35] I said something to her in Russian and she immediately became my best friend for the rest of the night. I saw half a dozen…maybe a dozen guys come in and try to hit on her over the night and she blew them all off. It's so interesting the way those little language niceties can change the way you're perceived.
John: And there's a motivation for you right there. I mean if you're struggling just stay motivated in the language. look no further than that. It just opens up so many doors that really cannot be opened in another way. It's a pleasure talking to you, Randy.
Randy: [23:08] Absolutely. Yeah. Have a great day, John.
John: You too. Thanks so much, Randy.
Randy: Take care.
John: Bye bye.
Randy: Bye.
John: For Show notes and the transcript of this episode go to languagemastery.com. and if you've enjoyed the show please take a minute to rate us in iTunes.
Mo' Info
To learn more about Randy, visit his website, Fluent Every Year.
In this interview with Clint Schmidt, LiveMocha's [former] Vice President of Marketing and Product, he shares what he thinks makes LiveMocha unique and he introduces some exciting new products coming down the pipe. He also responds to some of my grilling questions about the role of grammar in language learning. To learn more about LiveMocha, check out my review of the site's pros and cons.Listen to the Show
Read the Transcript
John Fotheringham: This is episode 4 of the Foreign Language Mastery podcast. I'm your host, John Fotheringham. In today's show I interviewed Clint Schmidt, vice president of marketing and product at Livemocha. For show notes and transcripts go to languagemastery.com. Here is the phone interview originally recorded on May 12, 2010.So why don't we start out, maybe you can just give my listeners a brief overview of Livemocha, what it's like, how it's different from other sites? And then I'll go on to some specific questions then.
Clint Schmidt: Sure. Livemocha is the world's largest online language learning community with free and paid online language courses in 35 languages and more than 500 million members from over 200 countries around the world. Livemocha is growing very rapidly and really quite virally around the world. A lot of them are word of mouth and recommendations from Livemocha members.
[01:15] I think people are enthusiastic about Livemocha because it's really different from alternative or conventional language learning approaches. We studied some traditional self-study language products to understand why they were still ineffective. And we identified two critical elements that were lacking; sustained motivation and opportunities to practice the language with another person. And we created Livemocha to deliver both of those elements and to make language learning more fun and more effective and more social.So each of our structured online courses include speaking and writing exercises that are reviewed by native speakers of the language that you're learning. And those folks provide helpful tips for you to improve your language skills. And in returning the favor, you can help them learn your native language. So it's a community-driven learning and it's all based on reciprocity. And it's really exciting and it's a very distinctive way to learn.
John: [02:36] You have actually done a few of the corrections already on the site, a couple of people pops up on the screen, “Would you like to correct so-on-so's writing sample?” So you mentioned about motivation being one of the biggest problems with traditional language learning which is absolutely true. How specifically does Livemocha keep you motivated?
Clint: Part of the motivation problem we found is that it's just boring to use some of the more traditional self-study methods. They give you a book. They trust that you're going to read the book and then you're going to memorize it and then you're going to talk to yourself out loud in your room, in the closet or in your car. Wherever it is, you're just going to talk to yourself and that gets boring. It's like homework without the teacher. You know if the teacher is not going to review it you don't do it.
[03:30] A couple of things that are motivating about Livemocha; number 1 you know somebody is going to review your spoken and written French or your spoken and written Russian right there. Somebody who is actually going to be there to review it. So you want to do a good job. It motivates you to do your best work if you know that somebody else will review it. But it's also motivating in another important way in that you're actually working with real people. And these people are helping you over the course of time repeatedly, make your way to the lessons. Perhaps you're helping them as well to learn your native language. And you start to develop a bit of a rapport with people. And that rapport brings the social element back to language learning. Imagine that being social as part of language learning.It helps keep people engaged. It helps keep people excited. It helps make it fun and bring a real person and a real character and a real interaction into the equation. And it doesn't make it so brutally boring to go back and pick up that book again. Instead it's fun, interactive exercises with people there to help you along. We started to change the whole approach to make motivation no longer an issue.
John: [04:45] Now how do you guys account for quality control for tutors and for things like that? It's obviously crowd source. It's anyone who wants to help can help. But if you get a case where there is a tutor who is giving blatantly bad advice or is being offensive or whatever, do you have a means to control that?
Clint: Absolutely. So I get into that in a couple of ways. First the easiest to give is that if somebody says anything inappropriate or just not very nice perhaps, you can easily block any user on Livemocha. When you do that you will never see that person on Livemocha again anywhere. They won't appear to you in the community. In fact if a specific member of Livemocha is blocked by many others, we automatically remove them from the community entirely. And so it's a self-policing community in our way if people who aren't productive or aren't being helpful, they're just removed naturally.
[05:51] Now with regard to the specific feedback that you get, yes, some people are more helpful than others. Some people will just say, “Yeah, good job;” other people will say, “You know, that was a good job but actually we pronounce this word a little bit different. You need to roll your R a little bit more this way.” It's a good greater level of depth if you will to instruct you. And what we find is that the people who give that greater level of depth tend to attract a lot of language partners to help them because you're rewarded by your students, so to speak, who can rate you as being particularly helpful.
John: OK. The next question is how do you sort of rise up or go down in the ranks of tutoring. So your actual feedback you give to your students will be rated?
Clint: [06:44] That's right. Your students will rate the helpfulness or not of the review that you give to them. And so on Livemocha we keep track of both the quantity of the help you give others and the quality based on student ratings.
John: And then that shows up in your points? Is that translated to…?
Clint: It shows up in your points. It shows up on your profile. It's visible to the rest of the community. So if you're choosing somebody on Livemocha to be your language partner and ask them to review your speaking and writing exercises, you're going to choose somebody who has done a lot of work for others and who's particularly helpful. You'll invite them to help you. But you'll also be very keen to help them because you want them to reciprocate.
[07:32] So what happens is the creme de la creme rises to the top. People who are really engaged in language learning and want to do a good job they attract the best partners and those people help each other. What we were finding over the course of time is that the community because of the dynamics that are naturally baked into the structure, the interactions on the site, the community just keeps getting better. Better people, better instructions, more recommendations with a higher quality of experience overall.
John: Right. Yeah, the bigger the pool, the higher quality it gets that's for sure. Well what I did in the last few days I started studying Arabic on Livemocha, which I have absolutely no experience with. I wanted to see what it felt like as a new learner. I briefly used it for Japanese a few years ago. But I've already studied Japanese for many years. So it wasn't an authentic experience for me as a newbie. And yeah, I did enjoy it. The only thing I encountered which may be my lack of understanding about how it works yet, it didn't seem like there is any place on the site that would teach me how to Arabic from the very beginning, what specific Arabic letter is, how it's pronounced. I think it's already assumed that you already knew how to at least read the letters. Is that something I'm misunderstanding or is that case?
Clint: [08:55] In fact, you're probably exactly right. That's a gap on Livemocha that we are quite eager to fill. And we are working very hard right now to fill that. I think that those types of instructions are best provided by the community, how to say it in traditional Arabic as opposed to broader regional Arabic. There is slightly different pronunciation, slightly different character. And so you start to do very quickly take on a responsibility for content development that far exceeds our ability to deliver on it.It's taking some time admittedly but what we're trying to build is an infrastructure on Livemocha that accesses repository and self-rating if you will, a repository for community-generated grammatical tips, grammatical feedbacks, specific pronunciation guide, even cultural and travel tips. There is a framework of community-generated content that we can wrap around the lessons that will make the lessons more effective, that will make them more relevant.
John: [10:10] I did notice that on the right side of the screen. You had a little section. You get thumb up or thumb down tip for any of those.
Clint: Yeah. That's a poor man's manifestation, the thumb, of the features that I'm talking about now.
John: Well it's a start. It was helpful. I mean you could see if somebody would spend enough time to write something meaningful, it would get thumbed up and that will be the first thing that showed up. And when you click to view all the tips, you could see someone there that was not very constructive. And then they didn't show up as often.
Clint: Correct. We can do a much better job with that and we will and are doing a much better job with that. But it does take some time when a site like ours is growing as fast as we are. And sometimes just keeping the lights on is a challenge so to speak. So we'll get there but it is taking time.
John: [11:00] Right. I know how that goes. So down the road what are some future things that Livemocha users can look forward to? Features? Functions?
Clint: Yeah. I have a little bit of insight that I can share there. Some of it are super top secret. But one thing that I would be happy to share is the type of content that we make available on Livemocha is going to be changing. The best manifestation of this change is represented by our partnership with Pearson.We collaborated with Pearson to create a new course on Livemocha that's a premium, paid-only course for people who are learning English. It's called Livemocha Active English. And the focus of the course is entirely around conversational English, real conversation, real day-to-day dialog, showing English native speakers conversing with one another with subtitles available for language learners and dozens of languages, presenting English grammar to a student in their native language, in dozens of native languages, presenting vocabulary in a similar fashion and then with that familiar Livemocha reciprocal burning that's integrated into an even richer course.
[12:30] It would deliver a lot of things that Livemocha's current courses do not, including that video content and more explicit grammar instruction. We're taking that model and now also expanding it in collaboration with Harper Collins to create similar courses for Spanish, French, German and Italian. And we may be looking forward to similar such courses in the future for a longer list of languages beyond.What we're finding again and again is that what draws people to Livemocha and what they're enthusiastic about language learning for is to have those conversations with native speakers with confidence. They want be able to go to the plaza in Madrid and ask for the best place in the town to have cafe con leche and to be able to understand what they're saying and to say “Thank you” and to greet new people, introduce themselves. It's not rocket science the types of things that people are aspiring to do. But the traditional tools just don't really get from there.
John: [13:36] Yeah. I completely agree. That's what my entire site is about. It's why the traditional method doesn't work and what does work. Now you mentioned about adding more explicit grammar explanations in people's native languages. In my experience and research that actually partly contributes to the inefficiency of traditional methods, focusing too much on information about the language and then not getting enough input in the language.It's not to say that the occasional glance at the declenching table can't be somewhat useful. But especially for beginners I find that the reason they never get excited about the language and the reason they never get to practice listening and therefore cannot speak the language is because they spend too much time whether it's in a book or on a website not listening enough to the actual native language and spending too much time thinking. How do you think Livemocha can overcome that handicap?
Clint: [14:48] Well I think the one thing that's often lacking from the same traditional methods is just as you've mentioned the ability or the opportunity to put the language into practice and to actually have those conversations. The best way to learn how to have a conversation is to try having a conversation. The sequence of our lessons, the sequence of our exercises for these new courses, while they will indeed teach you more about the language you're learning in your native language, they culminate in asking you to put the language into practice in real interaction with native speakers. So the introduction of let's say grammar and vocabulary is a means to an end, not the end itself.
John: My basic contention is that if you learn a language, what I consider the correct way, there's many minor variations that differ from person to person, basically if you're learning the language through input, through topics you're interested in, through just lots of listening and reading input you'll eventually get it. You don't need to be too academic about it because I said earlier I think being overly conscious, consciously looking at how things work, I think is what slows people down. And I think is what makes people believe Chinese or Japanese are difficult languages. They are difficult if you go about them academically because they're so different from English. But in their essence all languages have evolved the same way. They all use the same part of our brains. They all rely on the same basic structures deep down.
Clint: [16:37] That's really interesting. To me it touches on one of my dissertation topics. They are somewhat connected, that traditionally just because of technology limitations you were really constrained in being able to teach a lot of people a new language just because it was a one-too-many type of thing. You had a teacher and he was the one that had the knowledge and the sort of negating factor for disseminating that knowledge.
John: Yeah. It was broadcast only. Now we have uni-cast education.
Clint: You got it.
John: Just cool. Now there is no excuse now, I mean with so many wonderful products available online, many of which have a premium model like Livemocha. You can try it out. It's up to 202; I guess it's free.
Clint: [17:26] That's right.
John: So there is no excuse. You can get on there. You can try it on podcasts like this one. I mean a lot of my listeners and readers are actually ESL students. So they're using what we're talking about right now to learn English to improve their English. And then what I do is I provide a transcript of each podcast so they can actually listen and then read each episode. So anyway there is a plethora of opportunities now so there is no excuse. Now you mentioned you have 30-plus languages on the site?
Clint: That's right, over 30 languages. Occasionally we add new ones or take some other's software to further improve or adjust the content. But right now we have 35 languages.
John: What are the top 10 most popular on the site?
Clint: [18:16] Top 10, let's see. I can give it to you in a rough order.
John: That's fine.
Clint: Number one most popular was clearly English, followed by an almost tie for Spanish and French followed by an almost tie for German and Italian, followed then by an almost tie for Japanese and Mandarin.
John: Interesting.
Clint: And then right after that it quickly disperses into a very long tail of languages all the way from Swedish to Czech to Hindi to Urdu to Croatian and so on.
John: Right. That's interesting. If you looked at the list of the most commonly spoken languages in the world by native speakers versus the most commonly studied foreign languages, it's amazing that difference there.
Clint: [19:05] Well the fastest riser in Livemocha easily is Arabic. I expect that Arabic will be among the top 5 languages that people want to learn by this time next year.
John: Yeah. That's what I would point out. In the recent past it was not even in many university programs. And now it's something a lot of people are going after. But if you pull all the Arabic dialects together, it's I think number 3 or number 4.
Clint: Yeah. That's exactly right. It's all about English, Mandarin, Spanish and Arabic. Everything else is curiosity. In fact that long tail of languages that are available in Livemocha are there largely because our community has taken upon themselves to translate our sequence of words and phrases that comprise our lessons into their native language.
John: OK.
Clint: [20:03] So the reason why we have Croatian 102 is because we have enough Croatian native speakers on Livemocha who would like to see us offer that to those who want to learn Croatian.
John: Very cool. I mean that's the way you're going to do it. There is no way you'll every get all the languages unless there is some kind of open source, crowd source, Wikipedia-esqueway of doing it.
Clint: Yeah. The really cool thing is that because our lessons are a sequence of words and phrases and that sequence is fixed, we can show you translations in any one of those language pairs. So if you're a Spanish speaker who wants to learn Russian, we can show you the pairing there. If you're a Russian speaker who wants to learn Hindi, we can show that pairing, a Hindi speaker who wanted to learn Swedish, a Swedish speaker who wanted to learn Croatian. So you start to get into that long tail and you exponentially increase the number of relevant students and teachers that you can attract in the community.
John: [21:03] Right. In my experience because I studied Japanese first when I start studying Mandarin, a lot of times it's actually preferential for me to use a Mandarin book or material meant for a Japanese person because 80% of the vocabulary came from Chinese. Same for Korean if you're going to learn Korean.
Clint: Yeah.
John: So that actually is helpful in a lot of ways. I can see the derivations, “Oh OK. That character came from that character. OK I got it.”
Clint: I'm doing the exact same thing myself in learning Italian. I'm majoring in Spanish and it's much easier for me to absorb Italian with Spanish as my orientation point.
John: [21:47] Yes. Thank you to you for your time and for making a good product. What was the new thing coming down the pipe?
Clint: Yes. Our Active Livemocha, active German, active Spanish, active French, active Italian.
John: And active Chinese I'll be waiting.
Clint: That one will be on the top of the list.
John: I'll be first in line.
Clint: [22:09] Thanks John.
John: Hopefully by the time it comes out I'll be a tutor instead of just a student. We'll see.
Clint: We're ready for you.
John: All right. Actually there is one more question. Is there any limitations on who can tutor? Do I have to be a native speaker or can I just be proficient in the language?
Clint: [22:25] No. It's all self-selected provided that you indicate on your profile that you are indeed a fluent or a native speaker of the language. We'll let you try your hand at correcting others. But as I mentioned, if you're not proving to be too helpful, the community will quickly let us know and you may not be on Livemocha much longer or identified as someone who is very helpful. But you're free to try it.
John: Got it. All right. Clint, thank you so much for your time.
Clint: You bet. Thank you, John.
John: For a transcript of this show and more tips, tools and tech for learning any language effectively, go to languagemastery.com.
Mo' Info
To learn more about LiveMocha, check out my complete product review. For more information about Clint, visit his LinkedIn page.