Comments on: Why Grammar-based Instruction is Bunk http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk Tips, Tools & Tech for Learning ANY Language Fast Wed, 15 Dec 2010 23:09:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: jf http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-772 jf Mon, 10 May 2010 10:31:53 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-772 I think Spaced Repetition is also a powerful tool for learning kanji, and can definitely work for many people. But by itself, I find it a bit tedious and much prefer using "imaginative memory" as Heisig recommends. I have met people who find it too childish, but what's wrong with being a child I ask them? In my experience, being childlike is one of the keys to successful foreign language learning. And in general, exercising the brain's ability to create novel stories and mental landscapes is a great way to foster creativity and intelligence. But as long as you enjoy the process and succeed in reaching your fluency goals, it matters not what methods you choose! Keep up the good work on the blog! I think Spaced Repetition is also a powerful tool for learning kanji, and can definitely work for many people. But by itself, I find it a bit tedious and much prefer using "imaginative memory" as Heisig recommends. I have met people who find it too childish, but what's wrong with being a child I ask them? In my experience, being childlike is one of the keys to successful foreign language learning. And in general, exercising the brain's ability to create novel stories and mental landscapes is a great way to foster creativity and intelligence.

But as long as you enjoy the process and succeed in reaching your fluency goals, it matters not what methods you choose!

Keep up the good work on the blog!

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By: Ryan Layman http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-768 Ryan Layman Sun, 09 May 2010 22:02:37 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-768 Hey John, I half-used the system, and I half didn`t. I did remember characters and readings through Heisig`s stuff, but I didn`t bother learning mini-stories for each one. I trusted my SRS technology to just remind me over and over again when it was time to review. Haven`t had a huge problem. I, too, am glad to meet more people who are out doing this. They can be really hard to find in person, but it`s great to know that they`re online working as well. Thank you for the comments on the blog. It`s young, but I`m hoping it will grow into something pretty nice. Take care. Ryan Hey John,

I half-used the system, and I half didn`t. I did remember characters and readings through Heisig`s stuff, but I didn`t bother learning mini-stories for each one. I trusted my SRS technology to just remind me over and over again when it was time to review. Haven`t had a huge problem.

I, too, am glad to meet more people who are out doing this. They can be really hard to find in person, but it`s great to know that they`re online working as well.

Thank you for the comments on the blog. It`s young, but I`m hoping it will grow into something pretty nice. Take care.

Ryan

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By: jf http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-765 jf Sun, 09 May 2010 16:20:39 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-765 Thank you, Ryan. People seem to either love or hate this post which means I must be onto something important... I continue to be blown away by how many of us are out there fighting to expose the inefficiencies of traditional language education. I have also worked in Japan and have seen the horrid effects of a test-obsessed learning culture. With regard to learning kanji, the only method that has worked for me (and others I know who have reached full literacy in Japanese) is James Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji" <a href="http://(http://l2mastery.com/language-specific-tips/using-imaginative-memory-for-chinese-characters)" rel="nofollow">(http://l2mastery.com/language-specific-tips/using-imaginative-memory-for-chinese-characters)</a>. Have you used this system? I have enjoyed your blog and look forward to reading more. Thank you, Ryan. People seem to either love or hate this post which means I must be onto something important…

I continue to be blown away by how many of us are out there fighting to expose the inefficiencies of traditional language education. I have also worked in Japan and have seen the horrid effects of a test-obsessed learning culture.

With regard to learning kanji, the only method that has worked for me (and others I know who have reached full literacy in Japanese) is James Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji" (http://l2mastery.com/language-specific-tips/using-imaginative-memory-for-chinese-characters). Have you used this system?

I have enjoyed your blog and look forward to reading more.

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By: Ryan Layman http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-763 Ryan Layman Sun, 09 May 2010 08:06:34 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-763 I loved this article. I currently teach and work in Japan, and I am always blown away by how the number of real, important books that try to talk about how to learn a langage are simply dwarfed by the TOEIC test books. Of course, as you mention, that style of question and answer is required on university entrance exams. But in Japan, it gets even worse because a high TOEIC score is also often required for promotion through the ranks in large corporations. As a fellow blogger about language, I must say I love what you guys are doing. Here in Japan I`m working on fighting the good fight to teach students how to teach themselves a language, whether it be English or Japanese. Ironically, the frustration point that learners of Japanese get the most is figuring out that kanji can only be taught and not learned. But illiteracy is one of the biggest barriers to getting good at a language and really exploring it like you say. I loved this article. I currently teach and work in Japan, and I am always blown away by how the number of real, important books that try to talk about how to learn a langage are simply dwarfed by the TOEIC test books.

Of course, as you mention, that style of question and answer is required on university entrance exams. But in Japan, it gets even worse because a high TOEIC score is also often required for promotion through the ranks in large corporations.

As a fellow blogger about language, I must say I love what you guys are doing. Here in Japan I`m working on fighting the good fight to teach students how to teach themselves a language, whether it be English or Japanese.

Ironically, the frustration point that learners of Japanese get the most is figuring out that kanji can only be taught and not learned. But illiteracy is one of the biggest barriers to getting good at a language and really exploring it like you say.

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By: John Fotheringham http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-377 John Fotheringham Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:59:50 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-377 Irregular structures are difficult when studying grammar consciously, but the human subconscious brain is extremely capable of identifying patterns and remembering new content (no matter how complex or irregular). It is the conscious, analytical brain (combined with complex emotional responses to ambiguity, the fear of making mistakes, and the inability to express oneself) that tends to muck things up in language learning. Irregular structures are difficult when studying grammar consciously, but the human subconscious brain is extremely capable of identifying patterns and remembering new content (no matter how complex or irregular). It is the conscious, analytical brain (combined with complex emotional responses to ambiguity, the fear of making mistakes, and the inability to express oneself) that tends to muck things up in language learning.

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By: Meathead Jones http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-375 Meathead Jones Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:50:53 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-375 bridge2english said: "You speak slowly because you have tried to add German to your native language and were able to speak very slowly because you were using cross-translation tool." --- Sorry, but I don't speak slowly. I can now speak and read German almost as quickly as my native English. What I was saying was that I USED TO SPEAK it slowly while I was learning. I'd say it took me about 6 months living in Germany to reach basic fluency, and a further 6-12 months to reach high-advanced level. If you say there is a method which would deliver the same results as these in just 25% of the time...well...it's a nice idea! :-D bridge2english said: "You speak slowly because you have tried to add German to your native language and were able to speak very slowly because you were using cross-translation tool."

Sorry, but I don't speak slowly. I can now speak and read German almost as quickly as my native English. What I was saying was that I USED TO SPEAK it slowly while I was learning.

I'd say it took me about 6 months living in Germany to reach basic fluency, and a further 6-12 months to reach high-advanced level. If you say there is a method which would deliver the same results as these in just 25% of the time…well…it's a nice idea! :-D

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By: bridge2english http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-374 bridge2english Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:43:05 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-374 Let me comment on your statement. “I could only speak slowly - or VERY slowly if I was also trying to apply the correct rules of grammar! However, I believe that knowing the rules acted as a kind of guide line while I was gradually building up the subconscious tools to speak fluently. “ You speak slowly because you have tried to add German to your native language and were able to speak very slowly because you were using cross-translation tool, i.e. you have thought and devised your phrases in your native language and then subconsciously translated them into German. It is a typical approach of every language student and that is why: the conventional language methods failed! With the time you were able “building up the subconscious tools to speak fluently”, but very few people can do this because it requires faster cross-translation and is very strenuous on our mind. Here is another famous ESL teacher who has half a million followers; A.J. Hoge writes: “grammar rules are not the key to speaking a language easily, correctly, and automatically?” <a href="http://effortlessenglishclub.com/get-the-advanced-newsletter" target="_blank">http://effortlessenglishclub.com/get-the-advanced...</a> Read my above comment again and you will notice that my purpose was not to explain or justify your past experience in learning German but to offer a new approach which allows learning any language 4 times faster. Let me comment on your statement.
“I could only speak slowly – or VERY slowly if I was also trying to apply the correct rules of grammar! However, I believe that knowing the rules acted as a kind of guide line while I was gradually building up the subconscious tools to speak fluently. “

You speak slowly because you have tried to add German to your native language and were able to speak very slowly because you were using cross-translation tool, i.e. you have thought and devised your phrases in your native language and then subconsciously translated them into German. It is a typical approach of every language student and that is why: the conventional language methods failed!

With the time you were able “building up the subconscious tools to speak fluently”, but very few people can do this because it requires faster cross-translation and is very strenuous on our mind.

Here is another famous ESL teacher who has half a million followers; A.J. Hoge writes: “grammar rules are not the key to speaking a language easily, correctly, and automatically?” http://effortlessenglishclub.com/get-the-advanced...

Read my above comment again and you will notice that my purpose was not to explain or justify your past experience in learning German but to offer a new approach which allows learning any language 4 times faster.

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By: Meathead Jones http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-371 Meathead Jones Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:53:29 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-371 Hi John :-) I hear what you are saying about getting adequate exposure before starting to produce output - that is certainly an important point on which we can agree. As regards my other point, I think you aren't quite following me. I probably didn't express myself as clearly as I could have done, but if you read my first comment again you will see that I do NOT distinguish between 'simple' and 'complex' grammars - rather I distinguish between the 'regular' (including the highly complex) and the 'irregular'. (i.e. a language like Japanese is complex but highly regular, while languages like Icelandic or Russian are complex AND highly irregular.) In my experience it is irregularity of grammar which causes most difficulties - not the complexity. Hi John :-)

I hear what you are saying about getting adequate exposure before starting to produce output – that is certainly an important point on which we can agree.

As regards my other point, I think you aren't quite following me. I probably didn't express myself as clearly as I could have done, but if you read my first comment again you will see that I do NOT distinguish between 'simple' and 'complex' grammars – rather I distinguish between the 'regular' (including the highly complex) and the 'irregular'. (i.e. a language like Japanese is complex but highly regular, while languages like Icelandic or Russian are complex AND highly irregular.)

In my experience it is irregularity of grammar which causes most difficulties – not the complexity.

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By: Mearhead Jones http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-369 Mearhead Jones Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:44:46 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-369 Hi Arkady :-) My own experience of learning German was as follows: for a long time, I could only speak slowly - or VERY slowly if I was also trying to apply the correct rules of grammar! However, I believe that knowing the rules acted as a kind of guide line while I was gradually building up the subconscious tools to speak fluently. When I eventually reached fluency I found that I was much more accurate than those people like my friend (mentioned in my last comment) who tried to learn the language by 'flying blind'. I don't entirely disagree with folks like John (and Steve Kaufmann.) But I do think there is maybe a middle road to be found here. For me it isn't a question of grammar or no-grammar. For me you can learn language the natural way AND learn the rules of grammar as well. Why not? Hi Arkady :-)

My own experience of learning German was as follows: for a long time, I could only speak slowly – or VERY slowly if I was also trying to apply the correct rules of grammar! However, I believe that knowing the rules acted as a kind of guide line while I was gradually building up the subconscious tools to speak fluently. When I eventually reached fluency I found that I was much more accurate than those people like my friend (mentioned in my last comment) who tried to learn the language by 'flying blind'.

I don't entirely disagree with folks like John (and Steve Kaufmann.) But I do think there is maybe a middle road to be found here. For me it isn't a question of grammar or no-grammar. For me you can learn language the natural way AND learn the rules of grammar as well. Why not?

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By: bridge2english http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/why-grammar-based-instruction-is-bunk/comment-page-1#comment-368 bridge2english Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:04:16 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=665#comment-368 I understand you, Jones, it is hard to comprehend that we speak in the native or foreign language correctly not because we had studied Grammar! Language skill consists of spontaneously being able to use prefabricated phrases and phrase patterns. This is natural to the native speaker and needs to become natural to the learner of a new language. Speech is a subconscious process and your knowledge of Grammar is useless since during speech one does not have time or tool for analyzing information. The only way to real fluency is to speak without thinking. Visit my web site and you will find there more information on this topic. Regards, Arkady I understand you, Jones, it is hard to comprehend that we speak in the native or foreign language correctly not because we had studied Grammar! Language skill consists of spontaneously being able to use prefabricated phrases and phrase patterns. This is natural to the native speaker and needs to become natural to the learner of a new language. Speech is a subconscious process and your knowledge of Grammar is useless since during speech one does not have time or tool for analyzing information. The only way to real fluency is to speak without thinking. Visit my web site and you will find there more information on this topic.
Regards,
Arkady

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