Comments on: Why Most Fail in Language Learning and How YOU Can Succeed http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation Tips, Tools & Tech for Learning ANY Language Fast Tue, 25 Jan 2011 05:51:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: aarongmyers http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-8397 aarongmyers Tue, 25 Jan 2011 05:51:23 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-8397 I think to add to the three ideas of interest, motivation and goal orientation we may need to add a fourth category - knowledge. Most learners are unprepared to be self-directed and need to be educated/trained to the idea. Many like the idea of a class because they don't know where else to start. The everyday language learner needs to be trained to go out and get what they need. And you are doing a good job of doing just that with your writing. Thanks. I think to add to the three ideas of interest, motivation and goal orientation we may need to add a fourth category – knowledge. Most learners are unprepared to be self-directed and need to be educated/trained to the idea. Many like the idea of a class because they don't know where else to start. The everyday language learner needs to be trained to go out and get what they need. And you are doing a good job of doing just that with your writing. Thanks.

]]> By: Male Reproductive System http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-8378 Male Reproductive System Mon, 24 Jan 2011 22:50:38 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-8378 .`: I am very thankful to this topic because it really gives up to date information "*~ .`: I am very thankful to this topic because it really gives up to date information “*~

]]> By: John Fotheringham http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-4572 John Fotheringham Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:32:45 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-4572 It's interesting that you mentioned Bruce Lee. In addition to learning languages, I am also extremely passionate about martial arts, and I have come to see a lot of similarities between the two. Mastering either skill requires time, effort, dedication, consistency, a positive attitude, self-reflection, feedback on one's performance, and lots and lots of time practicing with other people. And just as in martial arts, there is no silver bullet for mastering a language. There certainly are countless modern tools and methods that make language learning a faster, cheaper, and more enjoyable process (e.g. Skype, social media, community language learning sites, smart phones / media players, apps, podcasts, online video, blogs, spaced repetition systems, cheap video/audio recording tools, and on and on), but there is no substitute for spending the requisite time on task. Until the we can implant a chip in our brains or develop a universal translator a la Star Trek, we simply need to give our brains the time and input they need to (subconsciously and automatically) figure out the patterns of a new language, and give our mouths the time and output they need to get used to the sounds of a new language. "How do we use what we have to get where we want to go?" Translating too and from one's native language definitely feels more comfortable in the beginning, and for some, can lead to eventual fluency. But the goal is to create a direct link between concepts and sounds/letters. And adults do indeed have a huge advantage here over children. While a child has to both learn new words and develop the mental concepts behind them ("mentalese" as MIT linguist and psychologist Steven Pinker calls it), adults already have the concepts down pat. They need simply connect them with the arbitrary sound combination counterparts found in their target language. "I am not signing up to use, antiquated time tested techniques to learn, in the same way, I would not dry my clothing on the line, when I have access to a dryer." Absolutely. Traditional methods simply don't work for the vast majority of learners, which was, in fact, the very inspiration for this site! If you spend any time looking at my other articles you will see that I am very anti-classroom, anti-textbook, and anti-grammar rule memorization, all hallmarks of traditional, antiquated, ineffectual language learning methods. "I guess no one has caught up, or there is not enough demand for language learning for anyone to come up with something truly incorporating technology and techniques." There have been many efforts to apply technological solutions to language learning, but I do agree there is plenty of room left for improvement. As I see it, there are 3 impediments to progress: 1) Those who know the technology tend not to understand how the brain acquires languages. 2) Those who have a firm grasp on effective second language acquisition tend not to understand the technology. 3) The rare few who grasp both 1 and 2 don't tend not to have access to the necessary capital to develop a good product, or lack the business and marketing savvy to build a profitable, widespread business. It's interesting that you mentioned Bruce Lee. In addition to learning languages, I am also extremely passionate about martial arts, and I have come to see a lot of similarities between the two. Mastering either skill requires time, effort, dedication, consistency, a positive attitude, self-reflection, feedback on one's performance, and lots and lots of time practicing with other people.

And just as in martial arts, there is no silver bullet for mastering a language. There certainly are countless modern tools and methods that make language learning a faster, cheaper, and more enjoyable process (e.g. Skype, social media, community language learning sites, smart phones / media players, apps, podcasts, online video, blogs, spaced repetition systems, cheap video/audio recording tools, and on and on), but there is no substitute for spending the requisite time on task.

Until the we can implant a chip in our brains or develop a universal translator a la Star Trek, we simply need to give our brains the time and input they need to (subconsciously and automatically) figure out the patterns of a new language, and give our mouths the time and output they need to get used to the sounds of a new language.

"How do we use what we have to get where we want to go?"

Translating too and from one's native language definitely feels more comfortable in the beginning, and for some, can lead to eventual fluency. But the goal is to create a direct link between concepts and sounds/letters. And adults do indeed have a huge advantage here over children. While a child has to both learn new words and develop the mental concepts behind them ("mentalese" as MIT linguist and psychologist Steven Pinker calls it), adults already have the concepts down pat. They need simply connect them with the arbitrary sound combination counterparts found in their target language.

"I am not signing up to use, antiquated time tested techniques to learn, in the same way, I would not dry my clothing on the line, when I have access to a dryer."

Absolutely. Traditional methods simply don't work for the vast majority of learners, which was, in fact, the very inspiration for this site! If you spend any time looking at my other articles you will see that I am very anti-classroom, anti-textbook, and anti-grammar rule memorization, all hallmarks of traditional, antiquated, ineffectual language learning methods.

"I guess no one has caught up, or there is not enough demand for language learning for anyone to come up with something truly incorporating technology and techniques."

There have been many efforts to apply technological solutions to language learning, but I do agree there is plenty of room left for improvement. As I see it, there are 3 impediments to progress:

1) Those who know the technology tend not to understand how the brain acquires languages.

2) Those who have a firm grasp on effective second language acquisition tend not to understand the technology.

3) The rare few who grasp both 1 and 2 don't tend not to have access to the necessary capital to develop a good product, or lack the business and marketing savvy to build a profitable, widespread business.

]]> By: Jeff http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-4564 Jeff Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:06:25 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-4564 It's a generational problem. Growing up with the "there's an app for that" culture has made us decidedly impatient and greedy. No problem with high standards from my vantage point. I just wish I could find some real world answers to problems, instead of conceptions and theories about what is going on. My perspective creates numerous problems. Bruce lee talked about acquiring knowledge in this way. He said everyone wanted to know what he knew. The problem was that what he knew was like a bottle full of water, and what they knew was like a bottle of coke. The traditional perspective, the only way to get this knowledge was to pour out the coke, and pour in the water. Traditions are great for some things, preserving culture and history, and terrible for everything else. Yes the traditional way works, just not at the speed of today.. My perspective is this, and I am a minority. Most every adult in any community, can read, speak, and write in a language. They have acquired a language before. How do we use what we have to get where we want to go? I am not signing up to use, antiquated time tested techniques to learn, in the same way, I would not dry my clothing on the line, when I have access to a dryer. I guess no one has caught up, or there is not enough demand for language learning for anyone to come up with something truly incorporating technology and techniques. Thanks for your response, I will incorporate it into my studies. It's a generational problem.

Growing up with the "there's an app for that" culture has made us decidedly impatient and greedy. No problem with high standards from my vantage point. I just wish I could find some real world answers to problems, instead of conceptions and theories about what is going on. My perspective creates numerous problems.

Bruce lee talked about acquiring knowledge in this way. He said everyone wanted to know what he knew. The problem was that what he knew was like a bottle full of water, and what they knew was like a bottle of coke. The traditional perspective, the only way to get this knowledge was to pour out the coke, and pour in the water. Traditions are great for some things, preserving culture and history, and terrible for everything else. Yes the traditional way works, just not at the speed of today..

My perspective is this, and I am a minority. Most every adult in any community, can read, speak, and write in a language. They have acquired a language before. How do we use what we have to get where we want to go?

I am not signing up to use, antiquated time tested techniques to learn, in the same way, I would not dry my clothing on the line, when I have access to a dryer. I guess no one has caught up, or there is not enough demand for language learning for anyone to come up with something truly incorporating technology and techniques. Thanks for your response, I will incorporate it into my studies.

]]> By: bridge2english http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-4521 bridge2english Mon, 29 Nov 2010 02:34:31 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-4521 Hi John and Jeff, Your answer and comment are very interesting and I decided to add my 2 cents. The great proponent of the approach “ears first, mouth later” is Steve Kaufmann who fluently speaks 11 languages. Here what he writes: “Speaking fluently requires memorization of vocabulary and knowing how to say them correctly at the correct tone. In addition, one needs to learn how to use the words in a sentence structure. So far in my studies, I have forced 5000 or so words into my brain through massive listening of repeated audio in under 1 year. My study regime is 90% listening and 10% speaking.” This advice may be useful for language-capable people – less than one in ten. I used this advice myself in learning German. But the majority of people were turned into language-incapable because of many years of using traditional methods. For this people this advice is not productive because memorization of vocabulary (the main component of traditional methods which failed) and should not be recommended nowadays. Antonio Graceffo in his article about ALG approach writes (about listening first): “…only if you already have a sufficient basis to understand 55-70% of what you are hearing. If you are a complete beginner, it won’t work. The TV would just become more noise.” I agree with Antonio’s concept and think that advice “ears first, mouth later” is not helpful for most of adult learners. My method is called Language Bridge and it uses simultaneous repetition instead of consecutive repetition and recommends starting speaking immediately from the very first lessons. The difference between consecutive (traditional) repetition and simultaneous one is similar to the difference between Newtonian physics and the Theory of Relativity. In my opinion, majority of adults suffer from cross-translation (subconscious translation into/from their native language) due to application of the traditional methods of learning ESL, when learning a language is considered as a subject and not a physical skill. The majority of adult learners consider themselves as language-incapable; their innate ability to learn a language was turned off by applying a wrong method for years. Linguists ignore this fact and try to force the traditional methods which were developed for the minority - for linguists to be. If a teacher is not aware of this and does not know how to mitigate or eliminate the cross-translation - s/he would not be able to show great results with the majority of the Digital Learners. That is my opinion and a foundation of the LB approach. The problem is that you can't stop cross-translation by explaining the problem; you should develop a tool that will do it automatically. The first (linguist) who did it in the past was Robin Callan who introduced double speed of speech. The second (entrepreneur) Li Yang introduced the "Crazy English" method that achieves the same goal of stopping cross-translation by shouting English sentences in a crowd. Unfortunately both Callan and Crazy English methods are obsolete nowadays because they could not be used by Digital Learners. Jeff, you should not be frustrated by John's presentation because you could not find an answer what is the best method of second language acquisition. Nobody can answer that question with great certainty. The world is looking for an answer to that question. The necessity is the mother of invention; we have a great need for the new and best method of learning a foreign language - and it would be invented soon! Hi John and Jeff,
Your answer and comment are very interesting and I decided to add my 2 cents.

The great proponent of the approach “ears first, mouth later” is Steve Kaufmann who fluently speaks 11 languages. Here what he writes: “Speaking fluently requires memorization of vocabulary and knowing how to say them correctly at the correct tone. In addition, one needs to learn how to use the words in a sentence structure. So far in my studies, I have forced 5000 or so words into my brain through massive listening of repeated audio in under 1 year. My study regime is 90% listening and 10% speaking.”

This advice may be useful for language-capable people – less than one in ten.
I used this advice myself in learning German. But the majority of people were turned into language-incapable because of many years of using traditional methods. For this people this advice is not productive because memorization of vocabulary (the main component of traditional methods which failed) and should not be recommended nowadays.

Antonio Graceffo in his article about ALG approach writes (about listening first): “…only if you already have a sufficient basis to understand 55-70% of what you are hearing. If you are a complete beginner, it won’t work. The TV would just become more noise.” I agree with Antonio’s concept and think that advice “ears first, mouth later” is not helpful for most of adult learners.

My method is called Language Bridge and it uses simultaneous repetition instead of consecutive repetition and recommends starting speaking immediately from the very first lessons. The difference between consecutive (traditional) repetition and simultaneous one is similar to the difference between Newtonian physics and the Theory of Relativity.

In my opinion, majority of adults suffer from cross-translation (subconscious translation into/from their native language) due to application of the traditional methods of learning ESL, when learning a language is considered as a subject and not a physical skill. The majority of adult learners consider themselves as language-incapable; their innate ability to learn a language was turned off by applying a wrong method for years.

Linguists ignore this fact and try to force the traditional methods which were developed for the minority – for linguists to be. If a teacher is not aware of this and does not know how to mitigate or eliminate the cross-translation – s/he would not be able to show great results with the majority of the Digital Learners.

That is my opinion and a foundation of the LB approach. The problem is that you can't stop cross-translation by explaining the problem; you should develop a tool that will do it automatically. The first (linguist) who did it in the past was Robin Callan who introduced double speed of speech. The second (entrepreneur) Li Yang introduced the "Crazy English" method that achieves the same goal of stopping cross-translation by shouting English sentences in a crowd. Unfortunately both Callan and Crazy English methods are obsolete nowadays because they could not be used by Digital Learners.

Jeff, you should not be frustrated by John's presentation because you could not find an answer what is the best method of second language acquisition. Nobody can answer that question with great certainty. The world is looking for an answer to that question. The necessity is the mother of invention; we have a great need for the new and best method of learning a foreign language – and it would be invented soon!

]]> By: John Fotheringham http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-4510 John Fotheringham Sun, 28 Nov 2010 23:06:41 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-4510 I am sorry that you found the presentation frustrating and find my advice “flawed and misguided”. The silent period is definitely a hotly contested issue, and there are compelling arguments on both sides of the argument. If you want to start speaking right away, by all means go for it. But my own experience as both a language learner and teacher across the globe has shown time and time again that forcing oneself to speak (or being forced) before one has received adequate input is a recipe for frustration, anxiety, fossilized errors, and for most, eventual failure. "Basically I would find it hard to believe that if language is a physical skill, like basketball, it would help development by keeping from speaking practice for any extended period of time. You learn to shoot by shooting." Perhaps it is overly simplistic of me to call languages a physical skill, though it certainly has physical components. My point was that language is not an academic endeavor, despite how it is typically taught and studied. Most learners spend far too much time and effort on "declarative memory" tasks, when fluency in a language is largely based on "procedural memory". The human brain will automatically figure out these "procedures" (i.e. the grammatical syntax of the language) if, and only if, it gets enough input. Most adult learners' brains never get enough, and therefore, never figure out (or are able to use) these patterns despite years of study. Moving one's lips, tongue and larynx in the right way certainly is a physical feat, and in this way, yes, one indeed does learn to "shoot by shooting." As I have said many times, one needs to speak a lot after a minimal period in which you get used to the language. “I have an objective to acquire a language in a short period of time, to become practically fluent (being able to converse with natives, and fully understand media in that language). I am currently at zero.” That has been my goal as well, a goal which I have achieved twice so far (Japanese and Mandarin Chinese) by doing exactly what I suggest. Since you are “at zero”, I suggest that you actually give my advice a try before shooting it down. "Do you have any knowledge of studies or people who have studied the strategies of exceptional adult language learners?" The tips on this site are informed by just that; exceptional adult language learners: Steve Kaufmann, Khatzumoto, Tim Ferriss, Randy the Yearlyglot, Antonio Graceffo, etc. My positions are also heavily influenced by the world's top linguists: Stephen Krashen <a href="http://(http://www.sdkrashen.com/index.php?cat=6)" rel="nofollow">(http://www.sdkrashen.com/index.php?cat=6)</a> Beniko Mason <a href="http://(http://www.benikomason.net)" rel="nofollow">(http://www.benikomason.net)</a> Steven Pinker <a href="http://(http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/index.html)" rel="nofollow">(http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/index.html)</a>. I am sorry that you found the presentation frustrating and find my advice “flawed and misguided”.

The silent period is definitely a hotly contested issue, and there are compelling arguments on both sides of the argument. If you want to start speaking right away, by all means go for it. But my own experience as both a language learner and teacher across the globe has shown time and time again that forcing oneself to speak (or being forced) before one has received adequate input is a recipe for frustration, anxiety, fossilized errors, and for most, eventual failure.

"Basically I would find it hard to believe that if language is a physical skill, like basketball, it would help development by keeping from speaking practice for any extended period of time. You learn to shoot by shooting."

Perhaps it is overly simplistic of me to call languages a physical skill, though it certainly has physical components. My point was that language is not an academic endeavor, despite how it is typically taught and studied. Most learners spend far too much time and effort on "declarative memory" tasks, when fluency in a language is largely based on "procedural memory". The human brain will automatically figure out these "procedures" (i.e. the grammatical syntax of the language) if, and only if, it gets enough input. Most adult learners' brains never get enough, and therefore, never figure out (or are able to use) these patterns despite years of study.

Moving one's lips, tongue and larynx in the right way certainly is a physical feat, and in this way, yes, one indeed does learn to "shoot by shooting." As I have said many times, one needs to speak a lot after a minimal period in which you get used to the language.

“I have an objective to acquire a language in a short period of time, to become practically fluent (being able to converse with natives, and fully understand media in that language). I am currently at zero.”

That has been my goal as well, a goal which I have achieved twice so far (Japanese and Mandarin Chinese) by doing exactly what I suggest. Since you are “at zero”, I suggest that you actually give my advice a try before shooting it down.

"Do you have any knowledge of studies or people who have studied the strategies of exceptional adult language learners?"

The tips on this site are informed by just that; exceptional adult language learners: Steve Kaufmann, Khatzumoto, Tim Ferriss, Randy the Yearlyglot, Antonio Graceffo, etc.

My positions are also heavily influenced by the world's top linguists:
Stephen Krashen (http://www.sdkrashen.com/index.php?cat=6)
Beniko Mason (http://www.benikomason.net)
Steven Pinker (http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/index.html).

]]> By: Jeff http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-4469 Jeff Sun, 28 Nov 2010 12:48:56 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-4469 John I came here with the objective of finding an optimal strategy for acquisition of a second language. This presentation frustrated and disappointed me. I love the effort and attention that you express towards SLA, I am just not sure how any methodology based on flawed logic and misguided observations can accomplish the task. I want to address the logic of the presentation, mostly because I am frustrated and hope it helps me find my way. The silent period theory has many contextual problems. The first, although children and beginning adult language learners have no knowledge of the target language, they have vast differences in ability and knowledge, which seems to be discarded in developing a strategy. Second, the silent period, and the language is a physical skill theory can not both be true. If you can get dramatically better by observing it is not a physical skill, and if you have to do it to get better it is. Basically I would find it hard to believe that if language is a physical skill, like basketball, it would help development by keeping from speaking practice for any extended period of time. You learn to shoot by shooting. That aside, I have an objective to acquire a language in a short period of time, to become practically fluent (being able to converse with natives, and fully understand media in that language). I am currently at zero. Do you have any knowledge of studies or people who have studied the strategies of exceptional adult language learners? I believe this would be much more helpful in our shared goal of building a better system for SLA.. Thanks Jeff John

I came here with the objective of finding an optimal strategy for acquisition of a second language. This presentation frustrated and disappointed me. I love the effort and attention that you express towards SLA, I am just not sure how any methodology based on flawed logic and misguided observations can accomplish the task. I want to address the logic of the presentation, mostly because I am frustrated and hope it helps me find my way.

The silent period theory has many contextual problems. The first, although children and beginning adult language learners have no knowledge of the target language, they have vast differences in ability and knowledge, which seems to be discarded in developing a strategy. Second, the silent period, and the language is a physical skill theory can not both be true. If you can get dramatically better by observing it is not a physical skill, and if you have to do it to get better it is. Basically I would find it hard to believe that if language is a physical skill, like basketball, it would help development by keeping from speaking practice for any extended period of time. You learn to shoot by shooting.

That aside, I have an objective to acquire a language in a short period of time, to become practically fluent (being able to converse with natives, and fully understand media in that language). I am currently at zero. Do you have any knowledge of studies or people who have studied the strategies of exceptional adult language learners? I believe this would be much more helpful in our shared goal of building a better system for SLA..

Thanks
Jeff

]]> By: Jason West http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-3554 Jason West Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:04:31 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-3554 Thanks for the mention Kirsten, I've just seen this now..what is it...63 weeks late, I'm so on the ball! :-) John, I love the presentation and the discussion here. It all makes perfect sense to me. I think Arkady's bullet point in his first post describes what I have been up to: •We need a new approach to learning English that will help adults in overcoming cross-translation as the main barrier in acquiring fluency in English and forming in the brain an English language speech center, independent of the native language speech center. I did a case study using two randomly chosen learners earlier this year and this is what Stephen Krashen commented on the 'before and after' podcast of a 27 year old Chinese learner called Jane, "Remarkable. If we had more description of just what lessons Jane did & other exposure to English, and her own view of what caused the improvement, this would be a major contribution to our knowledge about what works. Thanks for posting this." You can listen to the audio here: <a href="http://languagesoutthere.podomatic.com/entry/2010-04-29T10_09_39-07_00" rel="nofollow">http://languagesoutthere.podomatic.com/entry/2010...</a> What I did and what Jane did relates directly to your advice about using MP3s of yourself speaking.. The materials Jane used are our materials that we developed from 250,000 hours of teaching and facilitating real practice conversations with strangers in central London over the last 9 years. We have materials for students and teachers (guides/coaches/mentors) and both students and teachers can earn money from selling the materials. There are a growing number of advocates for what we do and it is very grassroots still after 9 years because it has been tough and we have had a lot of challenges on the way. I really do think it is time for change and for language learners to get a much better deal and I think that people like you, me, Kirsten and Arkady do need to collaborate to have meaningful effect. Thanks for the mention Kirsten, I've just seen this now..what is it…63 weeks late, I'm so on the ball! :-)

John, I love the presentation and the discussion here. It all makes perfect sense to me.

I think Arkady's bullet point in his first post describes what I have been up to:

•We need a new approach to learning English that will help adults in overcoming cross-translation as the main barrier in acquiring fluency in English and forming in the brain an English language speech center, independent of the native language speech center.

I did a case study using two randomly chosen learners earlier this year and this is what Stephen Krashen commented on the 'before and after' podcast of a 27 year old Chinese learner called Jane,

"Remarkable. If we had more description of just what lessons Jane did & other exposure to English, and her own view of what caused the improvement, this would be a major contribution to our knowledge about what works. Thanks for posting this."

You can listen to the audio here:
http://languagesoutthere.podomatic.com/entry/2010...

What I did and what Jane did relates directly to your advice about using MP3s of yourself speaking.. The materials Jane used are our materials that we developed from 250,000 hours of teaching and facilitating real practice conversations with strangers in central London over the last 9 years.

We have materials for students and teachers (guides/coaches/mentors) and both students and teachers can earn money from selling the materials. There are a growing number of advocates for what we do and it is very grassroots still after 9 years because it has been tough and we have had a lot of challenges on the way.

I really do think it is time for change and for language learners to get a much better deal and I think that people like you, me, Kirsten and Arkady do need to collaborate to have meaningful effect.

]]> By: Imparatus http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-783 Imparatus Wed, 12 May 2010 22:47:28 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-783 jf, Thanks for the answers! I eagerly await your acquisition of capital! I think some good beginner type material would be very well received. In any case, what you have suggested helps a lot, and confirms what I have begun to do. Listen to passages from my various audio sources (in general, my Shadowing CD, Bleach anime in Japanese, ID4 in Japanese, and various podcasts (including the Yomiuri News Podcasts)) over and over for what I CAN understand, then take each passage apart slowly to improve my understanding of the vocabulary of that passage, then re-listen. I very carefully try to understand the Japanese from Japanese to meaning, avoiding translation to English at all cost (although I find that this takes quite a bit of effort...when memorizing vocabulary I try to see an image of what the word means, rather than translate, and "feel" the word as though I were "feeling" and English word). I'll give LinQ a go, and see what I can do. In the mean time, I'm adding as much reading of Manga and Children's Books to my input as possible. This really helps cement the kana, and with furigana I don't have to worry about the fact that I'm only 300 kanji into RTK (trying to do 25/day or so). Thanks again! jf,

Thanks for the answers! I eagerly await your acquisition of capital! I think some good beginner type material would be very well received. In any case, what you have suggested helps a lot, and confirms what I have begun to do. Listen to passages from my various audio sources (in general, my Shadowing CD, Bleach anime in Japanese, ID4 in Japanese, and various podcasts (including the Yomiuri News Podcasts)) over and over for what I CAN understand, then take each passage apart slowly to improve my understanding of the vocabulary of that passage, then re-listen. I very carefully try to understand the Japanese from Japanese to meaning, avoiding translation to English at all cost (although I find that this takes quite a bit of effort…when memorizing vocabulary I try to see an image of what the word means, rather than translate, and "feel" the word as though I were "feeling" and English word).

I'll give LinQ a go, and see what I can do. In the mean time, I'm adding as much reading of Manga and Children's Books to my input as possible. This really helps cement the kana, and with furigana I don't have to worry about the fact that I'm only 300 kanji into RTK (trying to do 25/day or so).

Thanks again!

]]> By: jf http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation/comment-page-1#comment-774 jf Mon, 10 May 2010 10:53:18 +0000 http://l2mastery.com/?p=356#comment-774 Excellent questions. The 80% rule is a general rule of thumb I developed while teaching adult professionals in Taiwan and Japan (most of whom had been studying English for 10 years or more). When meeting a new student, I noticed that nearly all of them were reading and listening to materials far too difficult for their level of comprehension. Once I got them to use the 80% rule, they began enjoying their studies much more and making far faster progress. As you mention, however, it is difficult to find materials that fit the 80% rule for those just starting out in a language. Using highly contextual scenarios, carefully crafted audio/visual content, and step-by-step induction to new words and phrases, I believe it would be possible to create beginner level foreign language materials that are at least somewhat interesting and comprehensible without overtly explaining grammatical structures or translating vocabulary into one's native language. To my knowledge, however, such materials do not yet exist for most languages. (I actually have plans to develop such a product someday, but it will require a fairly large pool of capital...) In the meantime, the best thing we can do is use tools like LingQ.com to make traditional audio/textual materials comprehensible. As you go through material on LingQ (you can use their lessons or import your own), you can look up and save new words to the point where you have a basic grasp of a passage. You then re-listen and re-read passages again and again and again, and use their spaced repetition system (they will email you the "LingQs" you saved in progressively longer periods of time.) The system is not perfect and the quality of materials varies widely, but it is one of the most effective "freemium" language learning sites I have found to date. Hope this helps. Good luck with your Japanese studies (AJATT is a great way to go!) and please share any other questions you may have. Excellent questions. The 80% rule is a general rule of thumb I developed while teaching adult professionals in Taiwan and Japan (most of whom had been studying English for 10 years or more). When meeting a new student, I noticed that nearly all of them were reading and listening to materials far too difficult for their level of comprehension. Once I got them to use the 80% rule, they began enjoying their studies much more and making far faster progress.

As you mention, however, it is difficult to find materials that fit the 80% rule for those just starting out in a language. Using highly contextual scenarios, carefully crafted audio/visual content, and step-by-step induction to new words and phrases, I believe it would be possible to create beginner level foreign language materials that are at least somewhat interesting and comprehensible without overtly explaining grammatical structures or translating vocabulary into one's native language. To my knowledge, however, such materials do not yet exist for most languages. (I actually have plans to develop such a product someday, but it will require a fairly large pool of capital…)

In the meantime, the best thing we can do is use tools like LingQ.com to make traditional audio/textual materials comprehensible. As you go through material on LingQ (you can use their lessons or import your own), you can look up and save new words to the point where you have a basic grasp of a passage. You then re-listen and re-read passages again and again and again, and use their spaced repetition system (they will email you the "LingQs" you saved in progressively longer periods of time.) The system is not perfect and the quality of materials varies widely, but it is one of the most effective "freemium" language learning sites I have found to date.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your Japanese studies (AJATT is a great way to go!) and please share any other questions you may have.

]]>